The Computer Chess Community

[tuxedocat]

hi velmarin, I tried to enter the classical command: "bench" and "d", present in Stockfish code but nothing happens, why in your opinion?

It looks like copy of AsmFish,
Also no has "eval" command
It is possible that how all these copies try to "leave no trace".
But something is always neglected, in this case the command "perft" that gives exactly the expected output of an engine based on Stockfish.

First, I'll be upfront in saying that I'll agree with the consensus of the rest of the community as to whether particular engines are clones or not, as other people here are much better qualified to make those decisions than I am.

However, I do disagree that perft output on its own is a sufficient indicator that an engine is a clone. The reason is that in my own engine, I almost took the time to format my perft the same way as Stockfish purely for ease of debugging problems with my move generator. Having results look the same would make it easier to notice differences which would indicate a bug in my engine.

I didn't actually end up doing that, I would have reverse-engineered it rather than copying code, and my engine is open-source anyway so this isn't a complete example. But I could definitely see where a non-clone, proprietary engine might display extremely similar perft output to a strong engine for a completely valid and innocent reason like this.

And again, I'm not saying that the engine(s) under question here aren't clones, I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out a hypothetical counter-argument.

[hgm]

I agree. Perft is not conclusive, as the counts are fixed (if not wrong), and there are only few move orderings that make sense. Node counts in search are like finger prints, however.

[velmarin]

hi velmarin, I tried to enter the classical command: "bench" and "d", present in Stockfish code but nothing happens, why in your opinion?

It looks like copy of AsmFish,
Also no has "eval" command
It is possible that how all these copies try to "leave no trace".
But something is always neglected, in this case the command "perft" that gives exactly the expected output of an engine based on Stockfish.

First, I'll be upfront in saying that I'll agree with the consensus of the rest of the community as to whether particular engines are clones or not, as other people here are much better qualified to make those decisions than I am.

However, I do disagree that perft output on its own is a sufficient indicator that an engine is a clone. The reason is that in my own engine, I almost took the time to format my perft the same way as Stockfish purely for ease of debugging problems with my move generator. Having results look the same would make it easier to notice differences which would indicate a bug in my engine.

I didn't actually end up doing that, I would have reverse-engineered it rather than copying code, and my engine is open-source anyway so this isn't a complete example. But I could definitely see where a non-clone, proprietary engine might display extremely similar perft output to a strong engine for a completely valid and innocent reason like this.

And again, I'm not saying that the engine(s) under question here aren't clones, I'm just playing devil's advocate and pointing out a hypothetical counter-argument.

My friend, you are right everything can be copied 100 per 100, console output, output order, up to the generator, everything.
Everyone can put in UCI options, support Nalimov, without permission from Eugenev Nalimov, and that does not work, because there is no support.
Or put an UCI tactical option that does nothing.

Even so, I have not accused of anything else.
I remind you that we are talking about a file that is broadcast on the Internet, by unknown author, we do not know if it is original or not by its author.
A program that does not have web backup, volatile.
Anyone can make it.
Make your own conclusions.
You are a programmer can produce how this file 60 an hour and all different.

[velmarin]

My friend, I apologize if my search was wrong
This is your program, TuxedoCat.

What does the output look like? I ask ?
White or Black.

You refer only to the result Nodes .....
And the printf format .....

[fern]

As several pals has already told you in a way or another, just make use of this place for fun or whatever not giving much attention to triflings battles. Aliens are ready to come, world will change, all is or will be of no importance...

From mother ship regards
Fern

[Leto]

Just as I expected, you pretended to be willing to prove that you purchased Houdini 5 twice but when asked to provide proof to back up your claim you run away from it.

Such a genius at predicting stuff...

Robert, the way you treat your customers is really shameful, I must say.

Oh...you might find this enlightening:

http://chessncognac.com/wp-content/uplo ... ss-rat.png

One is Houdini 5 (as stated)

One is Houdini 5 CB (as stated)

One is Hiarcs 13 (as stated)

Am I the only honest person here? Don't worry, next time I'll get em from Mohommed's site.

Just for the record:
- Brendan is indeed a registered Houdini 5 user.
- User Leto Atreides is not me.
Feel free to continue your discussion with these misconceptions removed.

Cheers,
Robert

Thanks Robert. Brendan I apologize.

[Ras]

Brendan, don't worry. We are all here due to almost psychiatric reasons, aside being nerds and socially useless persons. The fact that not a single female posts here shows us our real value. Take it easy.

Fun story here: 5AM in the morning, my wife got up because she had get to work while I had off time (and during on time, I get up at 6AM). I had an exciting test game going on for the last hours.

She, totally confused: what, you're up?! I: yeah, it's both sides with two rooks, you know, and my machine with a knight against four pawns, but now it is even winning, totally crazy.

She, still sleepy: eh, rooks.. what day of the week?! *LOL*

But chess programming in itself has a good WAF (wife acceptance factor) because compared to other men, it keeps me busy so that I can't to do actually stupid things.

[Ras]

We just want to try some cool engines and many of us are willing to pay for them.

Well yeah, so pay and have fun.

It's not my job to study your industry to find which products are reliable or to "drain the swamp" of criminals.

Well yeah, so pay and have fun.

so until you can address newcomers in a polite manner, or educate those who aren't aware of such important "moral education"

I, as a newcomer in chess programming, did not experience rough or even hostile welcome here when I presented my CT800 project. I didn't experience any kind of crazy inquisition, either. Quite the opposite - I'm really happy that my little project now is even on the chess programming Wiki.

All despite that I drew a lot of stuff from other software. It was just that I've always openly acknowlegded my derivative sources along with their authors. Whoever might have wanted has been able to look up my source texts, the credits are properly in place also there. Although I did refactor and edit the sources heavily, that was not in disguise, just for future maintainability.

I have done a lot of work so that my CT800 project is much more than just copy-paste, and nobody here saw any need to start a flame war. Because people here just aren't the hissy-for-nothing-people you seem to be thinking of them to be.

My own, extending ideas on top of the inherited stuff that I put to discussion here have always been received with constructive and objective criticism, which is the very best you can expect from such a technical forum.

But - you know, it was not even that I feared to get caught when adorning myself with borrowed plumes. It's just that I'm too proud to borrow so that I prefer a small plume that is my own over a big one that is not.

Maybe you aren't a developer, and you simply don't know what it's like to pour thousands of code lines into your keyboard. When you are at that level, it isn't only programming anymore. Just like a brush in the hand of a painter, wielding a C compiler becomes an art form. And you won't take a Dali painting seriously that isn't actually by Dali, will you?

[Tony P.]

I, as a newcomer in chess programming, did not experience rough or even hostile welcome here when I presented my CT800 project. I didn't experience any kind of crazy inquisition, either. Quite the opposite - I'm really happy that my little project now is even on the chess programming Wiki.

Imo, your case is an exception because CT800 is tailored to weak dedicated hardware and isn't seen as a rival to the top PC engines. But if you released an engine whose initial version would be stronger than 2700 on the CCRL, and especially if you did so for profit without publishing the source code, then suspicion would arise, I'm afraid, partly because your engine would be interfering with the commercial interests of the big companies.