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Cursed win at TCEC
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Nuno Sousa



Joined: 13 Nov 2014
Posts: 445

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

Have a look:

http://tcec.chessdom.com/archive.php?se=9&sf&ga=17

Engines showing 0.00 due to 50-move rule, but position was auto-adjudicated as an M72 TB win Very Happy

Discuss Smile
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Dan Cooper



Joined: 01 Nov 2015
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

It should be changed to a draw. Not much discussion needed.
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Erin Dame



Joined: 06 Aug 2016
Posts: 227
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dan Cooper wrote:
It should be changed to a draw. Not much discussion needed.


Indeed. Is the TD aware of the situation?
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Dan Cooper



Joined: 01 Nov 2015
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

zenpawn wrote:
Dan Cooper wrote:
It should be changed to a draw. Not much discussion needed.


Indeed. Is the TD aware of the situation?


Martin is aware but not sure Anton is. Martin just said the result would stand because rules are rules.

I don't think they intended for this to happen though.
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Michael B



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2294
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dan Cooper wrote:
zenpawn wrote:
Dan Cooper wrote:
It should be changed to a draw. Not much discussion needed.


Indeed. Is the TD aware of the situation?


Martin is aware but not sure Anton is. Martin just said the result would stand because rules are rules.

I don't think they intended for this to happen though.


If true and they stick by their "rules are rules" and "our head is in the sand" mantra, they can kiss their little tournament , as it stands today , "good bye". Idiocy at its finest - if true. Hopefully it's not true and the results are "fixed", make that "corrected". 😊
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Dan Cooper



Joined: 01 Nov 2015
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

MikeB wrote:
Dan Cooper wrote:
zenpawn wrote:
Dan Cooper wrote:
It should be changed to a draw. Not much discussion needed.


Indeed. Is the TD aware of the situation?


Martin is aware but not sure Anton is. Martin just said the result would stand because rules are rules.

I don't think they intended for this to happen though.


If true and they stick by their "rules are rules" and "our head is in the sand" mantra, they can kiss their little tournament , as it stands today , "good bye". Idiocy at its finest - if true. Hopefully it's not true and the results are "fixed", make that "corrected". 😊

This is a bit of an overreaction.
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Nuno Sousa



Joined: 13 Nov 2014
Posts: 445

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

I think it should be a draw because engines played with 50-moves on. Who knows what would have happened if they had it disabled?

So yeah.. if you want to allow cursed wins (which I agree), engine programmers should be alerted before submitting the binaries.
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Mark Young



Joined: 12 May 2010
Posts: 996

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

whereagles wrote:
I think it should be a draw because engines played with 50-moves on. Who knows what would have happened if they had it disabled?

So yeah.. if you want to allow cursed wins (which I agree), engine programmers should be alerted before submitting the binaries.


Here is the problem. You can not claim the 50 move rule unless you have played the 50 moves. This never happened in the game.

TCEC rules state: Cutechess will also adjudicate 5-men or less tablebase endgame positions automatically.

The game was adjudicated a win. And you could force a mate but beyond 50 moves.

This is what happens when you have rules to adjudicate games, and not let the programs play out the moves.

As a tester I never adjudicate games for this reason.

But TCEC is not testing engines. They are running a entertainment tournament. So they have rules to shorten games, dubious openings to force more decisive games etc.etc. This is done to draw people to the site to watch the games.

This is just the nature of the beast. I would not get to bent out of shape about this. All the programs are playing under the same TCEC adjudication rules.
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Greg Simpson



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 2824
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

mwyoung wrote:
TCEC rules state: Cutechess will also adjudicate 5-men or less tablebase endgame positions automatically.

Is Cutechess using Syzygy? Then it should know it's a draw. If it's using Nalimov tablebases it should be adjudicated manually. The programs know it's a draw and one of them may have counted on that.
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Dan Cooper



Joined: 01 Nov 2015
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Cursed win at TCEC Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dirt wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
TCEC rules state: Cutechess will also adjudicate 5-men or less tablebase endgame positions automatically.

Is Cutechess using Syzygy? Then it should know it's a draw. If it's using Nalimov tablebases it should be adjudicated manually. The programs know it's a draw and one of them may have counted on that.

cutechess adjudicates using Gaviota. And yes, both engines had the game scored as 0.00 when it was adjudicated.
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