A french defence game

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hi Lyudmil,

I'm following this thread with interest, since the French is one opening I hate playing against.

After the line:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Nf3

You're claiming an advantage for white. After 7...Nbc6, how would you show that? In some of your lines you have the plan g3 + Bh3 + Nh5 + f4 etc, though 7.Nf3 doesn't seem to lend itself well to that plan (how does the knight get to h5?)

Also, in just about all your lines, black castles - but does he have to?

Nc6 in the Nf3 line is weak.

white plays simply Bd3, getting very large advantage, almost certainly winning:

[d]r1bqk2r/pp2nppp/2n1p3/2ppP3/3P4/P1PB1N2/2P2PPP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 0 3

not castling is known to be bad in almost every position and I don't see why this should make an exception.

in this Winaver line, black has only 2 realistic chances to possibly save the game:
- exchange light-square bishops after b6 and Ba6
- or castle long, the way Botvinnik treated this opening

even after those, though, white should retain quite some advantage.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Unfortunately improving the Winawer wasn't high on my priority list for the machines. That would take a long time. Finding a line that holds isn't as much effort.

Perhaps when you have the time we could give it a go. I'm fine with playing after f4 also.

Anyway, your thoughts and insights were very illuminating.

Thanks,
Mike

after your suggested h6, white has 2 good ways to get a nice advantage:

Bb5:

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npp1/4p2p/1BppP3/3P4/P1P2N2/2P2PPP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 0 3

which is a very solid move(bringing the knight to c6 precludes the possibility for black to later exchange bishops via a6, while Bd7 Bd3 basically does the same)

or g4:

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npp1/4p2p/2ppP3/3P2P1/P1P2N2/2P2P1P/R1BQKB1R b KQkq g3 0 3

I am not quite certain which one is the stronger of the 2, maybe g4, as h6 has created an(unnecessary?) weakening of the black shelter, which could be exploited by the g4 thrust.

[Guenther]

I would like nothing more than to prove you right! However, looking at games where black loses isn't a reasonable way to do that. Especially since black played 10 ... c4?

I propose we play out the Nf3 variation which you believe is strong. I will play the black side and have the system generate data as we go. In your example, the white score got over 0.40 in just 9 moves. I propose we set some limit, say 25 moves (you pick the move limit) for you to get my system to show greater than 0.40. After each move by you, I'll post what my system suggested for white (if it differed from your move) based on positions it had time to analyze. If you are interested, I play 7 ... h6 with a current score of 0.00.

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3
Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Nf3 h6 *
[/pgn]

Your turn!

For me as a French player 7... h6?! looks already dubious.
I would never play it. After I saw your proposal I also checked
my huge database and only two players over 2600 ever played that move.
The best of them being Ivanchuk in 1997, he lost and never tried again.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I would like nothing more than to prove you right! However, looking at games where black loses isn't a reasonable way to do that. Especially since black played 10 ... c4?

I propose we play out the Nf3 variation which you believe is strong. I will play the black side and have the system generate data as we go. In your example, the white score got over 0.40 in just 9 moves. I propose we set some limit, say 25 moves (you pick the move limit) for you to get my system to show greater than 0.40. After each move by you, I'll post what my system suggested for white (if it differed from your move) based on positions it had time to analyze. If you are interested, I play 7 ... h6 with a current score of 0.00.

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3
Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Nf3 h6 *
[/pgn]

Your turn!

For me as a French player 7... h6?! looks already dubious.
I would never play it. After I saw your proposal I also checked
my huge database and only two players over 2600 ever played that move.
The best of them being Ivanchuk in 1997, he lost and never tried again.

h6 might not be best, but there is no other move.

main black mistake was it chose 1...e6, and then the Winaver.

see what GM Judith thinks of the Winaver and how she treats it https://www.qualitychess.co.uk/ebooks/F ... xcerpt.pdf

[Guenther]

h6 might not be best, but there is no other move.

main black mistake was it chose 1...e6, and then the Winaver.

Please don't interfere again with my posts I am fed up with your nonsense.
Where is the ignore button finally?

[zullil]

I would like nothing more than to prove you right! However, looking at games where black loses isn't a reasonable way to do that. Especially since black played 10 ... c4?

I propose we play out the Nf3 variation which you believe is strong. I will play the black side and have the system generate data as we go. In your example, the white score got over 0.40 in just 9 moves. I propose we set some limit, say 25 moves (you pick the move limit) for you to get my system to show greater than 0.40. After each move by you, I'll post what my system suggested for white (if it differed from your move) based on positions it had time to analyze. If you are interested, I play 7 ... h6 with a current score of 0.00.

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3
Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Nf3 h6 *
[/pgn]

Your turn!

For me as a French player 7... h6?! looks already dubious.
I would never play it. After I saw your proposal I also checked
my huge database and only two players over 2600 ever played that move.
The best of them being Ivanchuk in 1997, he lost and never tried again.

This game, I believe:
[pgn]
[Event "Dortmund"]
[Site "Dortmund GER"]
[Date "1997.07.04"]
[EventDate "1997.07.04"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Viswanathan Anand"]
[Black "Vassily Ivanchuk"]
[ECO "C19"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "99"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Nf3
h6 8.Bd3 b6 9.O-O Ba6 10.Nh4 Bxd3 11.Qxd3 Nbc6 12.f4 Qd7
13.Bd2 c4 14.Qh3 g6 15.a4 O-O-O 16.Nf3 h5 17.Rfb1 Nf5 18.g3
Kb7 19.Qf1 Ka8 20.Bc1 Rb8 21.Qe1 Rb7 22.Ba3 Qd8 23.Ng5 Re8
24.Qd2 f6 25.Nf3 Nh6 26.exf6 Qxf6 27.Re1 Nf7 28.Re2 Ne7
29.Rae1 Nf5 30.Qc1 Ng7 31.Kg2 Qd8 32.h3 Qd7 33.Nh4 Nh8 34.Nf3
Nf7 35.a5 bxa5 36.Bc5 a6 37.Qa3 Rb5 38.Ra1 Kb7 39.Ree1 Rb8
40.Bf8 Ne8 41.Ne5 Nxe5 42.fxe5 g5 43.Re2 Kc6 44.Rf1 Qh7 45.Be7
g4 46.h4 R8b7 47.Bd8 Rf7 48.Rxf7 Qxf7 49.Rf2 Qg6 50.Kh2 1-0[/pgn]

[Guenther]

This game, I believe:
[pgn]
[Event "Dortmund"]
[Site "Dortmund GER"]
[Date "1997.07.04"]
[EventDate "1997.07.04"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Viswanathan Anand"]
[Black "Vassily Ivanchuk"]
[ECO "C19"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "99"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Nf3
h6 8.Bd3 b6 9.O-O Ba6 10.Nh4 Bxd3 11.Qxd3 Nbc6 12.f4 Qd7
13.Bd2 c4 14.Qh3 g6 15.a4 O-O-O 16.Nf3 h5 17.Rfb1 Nf5 18.g3
Kb7 19.Qf1 Ka8 20.Bc1 Rb8 21.Qe1 Rb7 22.Ba3 Qd8 23.Ng5 Re8
24.Qd2 f6 25.Nf3 Nh6 26.exf6 Qxf6 27.Re1 Nf7 28.Re2 Ne7
29.Rae1 Nf5 30.Qc1 Ng7 31.Kg2 Qd8 32.h3 Qd7 33.Nh4 Nh8 34.Nf3
Nf7 35.a5 bxa5 36.Bc5 a6 37.Qa3 Rb5 38.Ra1 Kb7 39.Ree1 Rb8
40.Bf8 Ne8 41.Ne5 Nxe5 42.fxe5 g5 43.Re2 Kc6 44.Rf1 Qh7 45.Be7
g4 46.h4 R8b7 47.Bd8 Rf7 48.Rxf7 Qxf7 49.Rf2 Qg6 50.Kh2 1-0[/pgn]

Yes, BTW it were 3 players over 2600 who ever played that in my 7 M database, but I could not edit anymore...

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

h6 might not be best, but there is no other move.

main black mistake was it chose 1...e6, and then the Winaver.

Please don't interfere again with my posts I am fed up with your nonsense.
Where is the ignore button finally?

are yuo able to discuss normally?

all I said is 1...e6 is weak, which is spot-on.

if you had read Judith's article I linked, you would have known this yourself.

[zullil]

after your suggested h6, white has 2 good ways to get a nice advantage:

Bb5:
or g4:

I am not quite certain which one is the stronger of the 2, maybe g4, as h6 has created an(unnecessary?) weakening of the black shelter, which could be exploited by the g4 thrust.

The latest asmFish says 0.00 , and suggests 8. a4 in response to h6. Of course, you can argue that the deep search is meaningless since the engine doesn't understand how to play this type of position.

Code: Select all

0.00 8. a4 Qc7 9. Be2 b6 10. a5 Ba6 11. Bxa6 Nxa6 12. axb6 axb6 13. Qe2 c4 14. Kd2 O-O 15. Ba3 Qd7 16. h4 Ra7 17. Rhb1 Rfa8 18. Bxe7 Qxe7 19. Ra2 Nc7 20. Rxa7 Rxa7 21. Rxb6 Ra1 22. Rb8+ Ne8 23. Ke3 Kf8 24. Qd2 Rh1 25. Rb4 Qa7 26. Ke2 Qa1 27. g3 Qf1+ 28. Ke3 Qa1 29. Ke2 (depth 47, 1:00:34)

0.00 8. a4 Qc7 9. Be2 b6 10. a5 Ba6 11. Bxa6 Nxa6 12. axb6 axb6 13. Qe2 c4 14. Kd2 O-O 15. Ba3 Qd7 16. h4 Ra7 17. Rhb1 Rfa8 18. Bxe7 Qxe7 19. Ra2 Nc7 20. Rxa7 Rxa7 21. Rxb6 Ra1 22. Rb8+ Ne8 23. Ke3 Kf8 24. Qd2 Rh1 25. Rb4 Qa7 26. Ke2 Qa1 27. g3 Qf1+ 28. Ke3 Qa1 29. Ke2 (depth 48, 1:07:39)

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

after your suggested h6, white has 2 good ways to get a nice advantage:

Bb5:
or g4:

I am not quite certain which one is the stronger of the 2, maybe g4, as h6 has created an(unnecessary?) weakening of the black shelter, which could be exploited by the g4 thrust.

The latest asmFish says 0.00 , and suggests 8. a4 in response to h6. Of course, you can argue that the deep search is meaningless since the engine doesn't understand how to play this type of position.

Code: Select all

0.00 8. a4 Qc7 9. Be2 b6 10. a5 Ba6 11. Bxa6 Nxa6 12. axb6 axb6 13. Qe2 c4 14. Kd2 O-O 15. Ba3 Qd7 16. h4 Ra7 17. Rhb1 Rfa8 18. Bxe7 Qxe7 19. Ra2 Nc7 20. Rxa7 Rxa7 21. Rxb6 Ra1 22. Rb8+ Ne8 23. Ke3 Kf8 24. Qd2 Rh1 25. Rb4 Qa7 26. Ke2 Qa1 27. g3 Qf1+ 28. Ke3 Qa1 29. Ke2 (depth 47, 1:00:34)

0.00 8. a4 Qc7 9. Be2 b6 10. a5 Ba6 11. Bxa6 Nxa6 12. axb6 axb6 13. Qe2 c4 14. Kd2 O-O 15. Ba3 Qd7 16. h4 Ra7 17. Rhb1 Rfa8 18. Bxe7 Qxe7 19. Ra2 Nc7 20. Rxa7 Rxa7 21. Rxb6 Ra1 22. Rb8+ Ne8 23. Ke3 Kf8 24. Qd2 Rh1 25. Rb4 Qa7 26. Ke2 Qa1 27. g3 Qf1+ 28. Ke3 Qa1 29. Ke2 (depth 48, 1:07:39)

interesting how is possible not to hit at least a single right move in a series of 20?

what would you play on g4 instead of a4, for example?