CRoberson wrote:Edgar Colle was born in Ghent Belgium, so that probably makes a difference.
Here in the US, it is pronounced two ways: 1) Coley as in the dog
2) Cole as in a chunk of coal.
What is the proper pronunciation.
Maybe GCP knows.
I am from Belgium too.
Correct pronunciation is exactly like "toll" or "poll" (the final "e" is not pronounced at all).
It's the same pronunciation as the common ordinary word "colle" = glue in french.
Marc
Bonjour Marc,
OK, you may be Belgian. But your surname is French, suggesting you're a Walloon while Colle was Flemish. So, are you correctly able to pronounce Dutch names? My experience with a couple of Walloons was that they were not fluent in Flemish.
My guess is that Dutch speakers, like Germans, pronounce the terminal "e" as "eh".
I guess it depends on the person. The name Colle is not of Dutch origin, and the guy might have stuck to the ancestral (presumably French) pronounciation. But some Flemish are vehemently anti-Francophone, and if he belonged to that class he would likely have Dutchified the pronunciation of his name to what you say (Kolluh).
hgm wrote:I guess it depends on the person. The name Colle is not of Dutch origin, and the guy might have stuck to the ancestral (presumably French) pronounciation. But some Flemish are vehemently anti-Francophone, and if he belonged to that class he would likely have Dutchified the pronunciation of his name to what you say (Kolluh).
Hi H.G.
Excellent point! Similarly, my limited experience with Walloons is that they're vehemently anti-Flemish, and pronounce all their proper nouns as if the words were French.
Thanks for clarifying that the surname, Colle, isn't Dutch.
Meanwhile, please have a look at Terry's pronunciation link, H.G. Surely their pronunciation of Scheveningen is wrong. My understanding is that the Dutch always pronounce Sch as Sk, like the English word "school". Right?
hmm, I will not try to explain how to pronounce 'sch', but it sure isn't like the english word for 'school'. Even our own (dutch) school is not pronounced like that even though it still means educational facility;-)
on this big thing called the internet though, I found a link to an actual audio file for your hearing pleasure and understanding^^ see: http://forvo.com/word/scheveningen/
If you can pronounce Scheveningen correctly, you can come live here! I think the "sch"sound is very typically Dutch and I have trouble finding an analogue in English or other languages around us. It is heavy on the "g" part and "ch" really pronounced like a "g" here but the "ch" is softened by the preceding "s" So the ch is a bit like the g in Grrr, or grotto, without the r, almost a scraping sound sound like you have to clear your throat, but at the same ch is always firmly attached to the s if this ch is preceded by it. Well, that is just like the English "sch", but it is pronounced very differently. We do have a few words starting with ch only but I think they are all from ancient Greek. Sch in Scheveningen actually is still a fluent sound, to our own prejudiced ears maybe even sounds melodic, but in a word like "schroot" it really starts to sound more like a growling "Grrr"
So no "k" sound in Scheveningen, or in schaken, or you will immediately be demasked as American no matter how good you might pronounce everything else!
Laurens Winkelhagen wrote:hmm, I will not try to explain how to pronounce 'sch', but it sure isn't like the english word for 'school'. Even our own (dutch) school is not pronounced like that even though it still means educational facility;-)
on this big thing called the internet though, I found a link to an actual audio file for your hearing pleasure and understanding^^ see: http://forvo.com/word/scheveningen/
Thanks, Laurens! Terry's link is thus most definitely wrong in pronouncing Scheveningen.
If you can pronounce Scheveningen correctly, you can come live here! I think the "sch"sound is very typically Dutch and I have trouble finding an analogue in English or other languages around us. It is heavy on the "g" part and "ch" really pronounced like a "g" here but the "ch" is softened by the preceding "s" So the ch is a bit like the g in Grrr, or grotto, without the r, almost a scraping sound sound like you have to clear your throat, but at the same ch is always firmly attached to the s if this ch is preceded by it. Well, that is just like the English "sch", but it is pronounced very differently. We do have a few words starting with ch only but I think they are all from ancient Greek. Sch in Scheveningen actually is still a fluent sound, to our own prejudiced ears maybe even sounds melodic, but in a word like "schroot" it really starts to sound more like a growling "Grrr"
So no "k" sound in Scheveningen, or in schaken, or you will immediately be demasked as American no matter how good you might pronounce everything else!
Eelco
Thanks Eelco,
Laurens supplied a wonderful link where a Dutch speaker said Scheveningen.
As an American, I thought it started with a sk sound. But upon repeatedly playing it, it sounds more like s-h-G. Right? The "eh" terminal sound was a surprise! As tough as Scheveningen is for this American to pronounce correctly, I know Groningen is much worse!
If you can pronounce Scheveningen correctly, you can come live here! I think the "sch"sound is very typically Dutch and I have trouble finding an analogue in English or other languages around us. It is heavy on the "g" part and "ch" really pronounced like a "g" here but the "ch" is softened by the preceding "s" So the ch is a bit like the g in Grrr, or grotto, without the r, almost a scraping sound sound like you have to clear your throat, but at the same ch is always firmly attached to the s if this ch is preceded by it. Well, that is just like the English "sch", but it is pronounced very differently. We do have a few words starting with ch only but I think they are all from ancient Greek. Sch in Scheveningen actually is still a fluent sound, to our own prejudiced ears maybe even sounds melodic, but in a word like "schroot" it really starts to sound more like a growling "Grrr"
So no "k" sound in Scheveningen, or in schaken, or you will immediately be demasked as American no matter how good you might pronounce everything else!
Eelco
Thanks Eelco,
Laurens supplied a wonderful link where a Dutch speaker said Scheveningen.
As an American, I thought it started with a sk sound. But upon repeatedly playing it, it sounds more like s-h-G. Right? The "eh" terminal sound was a surprise! As tough as Scheveningen is for this American to pronounce correctly, I know Groningen is much worse!
All the best,
Steve
Hi Steve,
Yes, I think you've got it now. There is of course a link for Groningen too, and pronunciation by Corien who I must say would be a great choice for a new sexy remake of the Chess Challenger Voice. A bit too distracting in a Tom Tom I think. http://forvo.com/word/groningen/
As good as the internet is though as a resource I hope that old-fashioned dictionaries and encyclopedias will not disappear altogether. It seems antiquated encyclopedias are almost without any collector's value as nobody is using them anymore. Saw that on a "Antiques Roadshow" style of program here on television where it was almost advised to just recycle them as wastepaper... Maybe in 50 years nobody wil know what the term "encyclopedia" meant and there will remain just one priceless, incomplete edition of the last Encyclopedia Brittanica in the Bodleian in England, the missing volumes will be lost for a hundred years somewhere in the vaults of the Library of Congress in Washington.
Times they are a changin, yes the dissapearing -n- at the end of the pronunciation of Scheveningen is something that you do not even think about, but real, even in The Hague and Scheveningen nearby where they usually speak very correct Dutch, Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands. Ed Schröder could attest to that as I believe he was born there in The Hague. Of course there is also Haags dialect which sounds completely different from ABN. But even in The Hague and in the Dutch parliament there speakers would probably leave out the last n. But maybe 50 or more years ago they would not have? I don't know.
Sometimes not pronouncing this last n in a word is just careless pronunciation, and on the whole I think it is usually correct to assume the n is to be pronounced.
If you can pronounce Scheveningen correctly, you can come live here! I think the "sch"sound is very typically Dutch and I have trouble finding an analogue in English or other languages around us. It is heavy on the "g" part and "ch" really pronounced like a "g" here but the "ch" is softened by the preceding "s" So the ch is a bit like the g in Grrr, or grotto, without the r, almost a scraping sound sound like you have to clear your throat, but at the same ch is always firmly attached to the s if this ch is preceded by it. Well, that is just like the English "sch", but it is pronounced very differently. We do have a few words starting with ch only but I think they are all from ancient Greek. Sch in Scheveningen actually is still a fluent sound, to our own prejudiced ears maybe even sounds melodic, but in a word like "schroot" it really starts to sound more like a growling "Grrr"
So no "k" sound in Scheveningen, or in schaken, or you will immediately be demasked as American no matter how good you might pronounce everything else!
Eelco
Thanks Eelco,
Laurens supplied a wonderful link where a Dutch speaker said Scheveningen.
As an American, I thought it started with a sk sound. But upon repeatedly playing it, it sounds more like s-h-G. Right? The "eh" terminal sound was a surprise! As tough as Scheveningen is for this American to pronounce correctly, I know Groningen is much worse!
All the best,
Steve
Hi Steve,
Yes, I think you've got it now. There is of course a link for Groningen too, and pronunciation by Corien who I must say would be a great choice for a new sexy remake of the Chess Challenger Voice. A bit too distracting in a Tom Tom I think. http://forvo.com/word/groningen/
As good as the internet is though as a resource I hope that old-fashioned dictionaries and encyclopedias will not disappear altogether. It seems antiquated encyclopedias are almost without any collector's value as nobody is using them anymore. Saw that on a "Antiques Roadshow" style of program here on television where it was almost advised to just recycle them as wastepaper... Maybe in 50 years nobody wil know what the term "encyclopedia" meant and there will remain just one priceless, incomplete edition of the last Encyclopedia Brittanica in the Bodleian in England, the missing volumes will be lost for a hundred years somewhere in the vaults of the Library of Congress in Washington.
Times they are a changin, yes the dissapearing -n- at the end of the pronunciation of Scheveningen is something that you do not even think about, but real, even in The Hague and Scheveningen nearby where they usually speak very correct Dutch, Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands. Ed Schröder could attest to that as I believe he was born there in The Hague. Of course there is also Haags dialect which sounds completely different from ABN. But even in The Hague and in the Dutch parliament there speakers would probably leave out the last n. But maybe 50 or more years ago they would not have? I don't know.
Sometimes not pronouncing this last n in a word is just careless pronunciation, and on the whole I think it is usually correct to assume the n is to be pronounced.
Best, Eelco
Hi Eelco,
Thank you for such a a witty and thoughtful post! I bookmarked the link for Dutch pronunciations since it's helpful not only with place names, but also with my favorite Dutch footballers.
Like you, I lament the pending demise of encyclopedias and dictionaries since I'm a bibliophile. But, that's apparently "progress". No book could ever give us Corien's sexy voice and trustworthy pronunciations.
I agree that dialects are problematic. But, it's interesting that even a country as small as Nederland has regional dialects.
Sounded good to me.
