Goodbye Talkchess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

Roger Brown
Posts: 782
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:22 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Roger Brown »

Graham Banks wrote:
Roger Brown wrote:I personally requested that various engine results be moved out of the EO sub-forum and placed in the Tournaments sub-forum.

Nothing doing. In fact I was told that it would be better to have them there than nowhere else as if those were the only alternatives.

Then it became clear that nothing serious was to come out of the EO sub-forum, even by accident. It was merely to be a place of dumping, a place where flames could be started without any moderator action because it was hidden.
It would be helpful to quote where all this came from, because a lot of it did not come from me.
However, I know that I'm the target here, so anything goes it would seem. At least try to be honest please.




Hello Graham,

Great.

Now you insinuate that I am dishonest.

Why am I not surprised?

Look in this thread for one example of what I am talking about.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

Of course I would expect a retraction of the dishonesty insinuation from anyone else but I do not propose to hold my breath waiting for it from you. Insinuate away.

The flames comment was not yours - and I never attributed it to you. In fact, it seemed to be a popular joke at the time of I recall. A joke with far too much truth unfortunately.

Later.
Roger Brown
Posts: 782
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:22 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Roger Brown »

mcostalba wrote:
I read what happened and there are many thins that actually I don't like at all.

1) If some commercial author pushed the owner of the site to censor Ippo links (as probably has happened) then the owner of the site should openly and trasparently state that "the forum will not tolerate..and so and so ..." and not pushing his pawns behind closed doors to do the dirty job.

If the owner of the site wants to protect his cutomer and do not reveal that has been pushed by someone to take this decision then this is fair, but should at least put his face on this decision and state this clearly _before_ starting to remove stuff.

This has not happened.

2) Because the order has been sent privately, then privately the owner of the site should have been take counter actions if/when found something was going wrong and not (sorry for this italian expression) "give shit" publicly to a pawn/moderator that mistakenly made a double instead of a single push.


So I feel unconfortable to post in a forum influenced by "hidden" commercial engines companies (I'm quite sure of this because a site owner doesn't wake up a morning chosing to ban something if not pushed by some customer, I think I know quite well how these things work because is my day job BTW) and whose policy is not transparently declared before corresponding actions are taken. If I go to Rybka forum I know Rybka controls everything, but this is ok as long as "Rybka" is written on the name of the forum and it's up to me to decide if posting or not (I don't), but here I didn't expect something like what's happened.

At last I would like to say something also to Graham.

Graham, you have been voted by people here and you are moderator because of forum users (not owners) put you there, so you deserve loyalty to people that voted you, not to someone else. If someone else is in a position to force you to do something it is up to you to decide what to do, but I think that would be fair to say _before_ : "Dear users, dear people that trust on me, I inform you that I was asked to remove stuff, I have accepted that duty and I will start it now"


Hello Marco,

Wonderful!

Later.
BBauer
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by BBauer »

I have been here from the very beginning (1997) and I am glad to leave now.
Graham has become a pest to this forum.

Kind regards
Bernhard
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Graham Banks
Posts: 41428
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Graham Banks »

Roger Brown wrote: Now you insinuate that I am dishonest.
"Being fair" instead of "being honest" would have been more appropriate, so I apologise. :wink:
However, it was quite clear that your post was targeted at me.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Graham Banks
Posts: 41428
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Graham Banks »

mcostalba wrote: Graham, you have been voted by people here and you are moderator because of forum users (not owners) put you there, so you deserve loyalty to people that voted you, not to someone else. If someone else is in a position to force you to do something it is up to you to decide what to do, but I think that would be fair to say _before_ : "Dear users, dear people that trust on me, I inform you that I was asked to remove stuff, I have accepted that duty and I will start it now"
If it comes to a choice between doing as requested or risking the forum being shut down, I choose to do as requested.
I did post an announcement explaining the situation as I understood it at the time, before taking the actions that I did.
However, I misinterpreted the extent of what was expected and I've since apologised for it.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Graham Banks »

BBauer wrote:I have been here from the very beginning (1997) and I am glad to leave now.
Graham has become a pest to this forum.

Kind regards
Bernhard
I love you too Bernhard. I've forgotten how many times you've made such posts, but a search would show it. I can't recall having replied to you in kind though.
I think that it's good to have an extra forum for those interested in our hobby, and I've already wished Jeremy well with it.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by swami »

I don't think "ICD, Your Move" has threatened to "Shut down the forum" if we don't delete links to Robbolito/Houdini/Ivanhoe.

They just requested us to delete the links but they didn't state the _consequences_ if the request was not fulfilled.
Graham Banks wrote:If it comes to a choice between doing as requested or risking the forum being shut down, I choose to do as requested.
I did post an announcement explaining the situation as I understood it at the time, before taking the actions that I did.
However, I misinterpreted the extent of what was expected and I've since apologised for it.

Cheers,
Graham.
sockmonkey
Posts: 588
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:16 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by sockmonkey »

Sam Hull wrote:(b) There has been a rather large misunderstanding, and Jeremy has slightly misquoted what I passed along from ICD/Your Move. The guidance is simply to not tolerate anything that looks like a LINK to illegitimate software in CCC. No one said anything about censoring discussions or removing posts that simply make allusions or offer evaluations. Graham misunderstood the intent of the guidance - I have clarified it in detail for him this evening via IM. Where the issue of clones is concerned, and for the board in general, the goal of fair and balanced moderation has not changed, and there is no desire for favoritism in ANY direction.
Although I am glad to hear that there was a misunderstanding, I think that this situation has made quite clear, at least for me, that there is a problematic tension between the commercial needs of the site owners and the discussion freedoms demanded by the site membership. I can't count the number of times that I have received the note: "if you don't change your moderation policies, I will be calling/writing/emailing/knocking on the door of YMC&G and letting them know exactly what's going on here." This commercial "last instance" is in conflict with the needs of the board's members.
(c) I hope Jeremy will reconsider his decision. I have not had a chance to converse with him directly and have received no PMs from him. I posted responses in the moderator forum as soon as I regained internet access, but I am still locked out of e-mail and will be until tomorrow morning. I think Jeremy has been an outstanding moderator and I fully support his philosophy of moderation - always have.
I'm flattered. I did send you a PM, but it sounds like the machines didn't want to cooperate.

Nevertheless, I've committed to starting OpenChess and I'm going to follow through. In the first 12 hours of operation, we've had plenty of signups, discussions are getting underway, the logo looks good, and we're off to a good start.
(d) I don't set moderation policy. I passed along a request to the CCC mods that I received from Quentin, which came as the result of certain members haranguing ICD about real, suspected, and imagined clones. Graham misunderstood the message, performed some moderation on that basis, and Jeremy decided to post a grand exit without waiting to get any clarification about the guidance.
This has been a long time in coming, and I don't think that I've overreacted.
(e) Personally I am surprised that two CCC mods who share an opinion cannot simply outvote and override one mod on those occasions when he has a different view. I got regularly overridden for two whole terms in CTF. I haven't complained, and nobody died. It's a discussion board, folks.
Graham has been outvoted consistently this term. It hasn't changed his readiness to moderate unilaterally and aggressively against posts and members which whom he does not personally agree. When I tried to put on the brakes, I was told (by Graham) to stop playing games, that this was no longer a moderation issue, and that our previous agreements were no longer valid. Essentially, "tough luck, dipshit, I'm doing what I want." This has also been a theme this moderation term, and no amount of voting, discussion or debate has changed the fact that certain moderators (Graham being a paramount example) feel that (or act as if) their personal convictions are more important than the general will of the forum.

Yes, it is only a discussion forum. I promised myself at the beginning of the term to not get emotionally invested. I failed. ;)
(f) If a member runs for moderator and is elected, I think it is fair to expect him to honor his commitment and serve out the term.

-Sam-
You are correct there, and I will honor my commitment and continue to moderate until the end of my term. I never intended to run for a second, so nothing has changed there. However, my focus, and my participation, will be on OpenChess (http://www.open-chess.org).

No hard feelings, Sam, I've appreciated your assistance and support over the last months.

Jeremy
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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Graham Banks »

sockmonkey wrote:Graham has been outvoted consistently this term. It hasn't changed his readiness to moderate unilaterally and aggressively against posts and members which whom he does not personally agree. When I tried to put on the brakes, I was told (by Graham) to stop playing games, that this was no longer a moderation issue, and that our previous agreements were no longer valid. Essentially, "tough luck, dipshit, I'm doing what I want." This has also been a theme this moderation term, and no amount of voting, discussion or debate has changed the fact that certain moderators (Graham being a paramount example) feel that (or act as if) their personal convictions are more important than the general will of the forum.
I think you're being overly harsh Jeremy and I would hope that I've not attacked your integrity publicly in the same manner. I've certainly not let any polls on your moderation ability hang around for more than 24 hours.

I have tried to treat members equally and have always communicated respectfully with them. Personal comments/insults have been removed consistently with no bias on my part. I'm sorry that you perceive it differently.

I have explained why I acted as I did after the message that Sam passed on to us. I believed that I was doing the right thing at the time, but have since apologised to everybody for misunderstanding exactly what was meant.

Anyway, best wishes with your new forum and with married life.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Zagalo
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:20 am

Re: Goodbye Talkchess

Post by Zagalo »

I fully support ICD in whatever they do. I still have Fidelity Electronics "Chess Challenger" and "Prestige" that I bought from ICD decades ago :)

Graham your doing a great job. Perfection is not of human nature :D