Chan Rasjid wrote:
Please summarize for those who are just average in intelligence.
Youri : my Strelka is Rybka.
Fabien : This Strelka is my Fruit!
Bob&all. : This Rybka is this Fruit.
Julien,you've managed short circuit my brain elctrical system
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
Matthias Gemuh wrote:
Proof that Rybka is a Fruit derivative has been presented since Rybka 1.0 beta, though some people will never accept any amount of proof as adequate.
For 3 years this controversy has not been enough to demand of you to remove Rybka from your lists ?
You may consider including Houdini and co instead of removing Fruit clones.
Matthias.
Hi Matthias,
Controversy means that anything can be right. When there is controversy among experts, there is confusion among the masses. When confused, you either stand still or move. Your choice, either can be right.
Nice, while confused, Gabor has two states:
1. Gabor is confused, test Chessbase confusing engines
2. Gabor is confused, ban free confusing engines
Kai
And if I do the opposite, someone else will write me who is equally convinced he is right. Actually, it has happened many times.
Please, could you do randomly, as you imply, the opposite, for one month, along with all your buddies? Some pick randomly Chessbase things, others free things, I understand .
I've communicated with Fabien and he now has an active CCC account. I'd suggest that we try to have a civil discourse and let him explain his interpretation of what has happened. I will alert the other mods to keep a close eye on these threads so that they don't get out of control. I doubt you will hear anything new or surprising, but it will be coming from a new source. What you believe is up to you, of course.
Tord Romstad wrote:My good friend Fabien Letouzey, author of Fruit, asked me to post the following message for him:
Is there a particular reason for Fabien not posting this message himself?
The best advice for Fabien would be to settle this matter directly with Vas Rajlich, chess forums are hardly the right place to resolve this kind of issue.
Robert
He was having problems with the sign-up process and getting activated. That has been resolved, so he should chime in pretty soon I would think... I just sent him an email notifying him that Sam said his account was ready for use.
He did not _lose_ the sources. He just did not keep old versions but overwrote them with each modification.
Maybe someone has already replied the same on one of the next 15 pages of this thread, I have just read a few pages until now ...
Sven
AdminX wrote:
Ovyron wrote:It's going to be a difficult case, Vas never saved his sources codes, he doesn't have the Rybka 3 one, so I'm sure he doesn't have the code of Rybka 1.1 or 2.0, all the investigations would need to be done as reverse engineered code.
It was unfortunate that Vas claimed Strelka's code as his own, since later it was found out that it had significant parts of Fruit.
As about the ply and node count obfuscations, they have been explained at Rybka forum, 3 plies are added to normalize the count relative to other engines, as earlier plies are "thinner" and don't fulfill their definition of ply, nodes are recalculated so they can be used to compare different hardware, i.e. higher nodes must mean higher strength at all times, unlike other engines that with hyperthreading show higher node count but play weaker.
Question: If Vas LOST Rybka 3 Sources, Then how the Hell did he write Rybka 4 so fast. That is a hell of allot of code for a very strong program.
bob wrote:I've communicated with Fabien and he now has an active CCC account. I'd suggest that we try to have a civil discourse and let him explain his interpretation of what has happened. I will alert the other mods to keep a close eye on these threads so that they don't get out of control. I doubt you will hear anything new or surprising, but it will be coming from a new source. What you believe is up to you, of course.
What do you mean we will not hear anything new or surprising.
You don't think Fabien saying he as never talked to Vas about this issue is not new or surprising. After Vas stated he talked to Fabien, and Fabien had no issues with Rybka regarding Fruit code. Yes, this is not news I guess if it is a given that Vas is a pathological Liar .
Robert Flesher wrote:To add some humor to this situation can someone please link this thread to the Rybka forum. I'd like to know how many milliseconds it will last.
Felix will destroy it in 3 milliseconds including the time to read it
I made a post on the Rybka forum but the last time I checked the rybka team had been strangely quiet.
Robert Flesher wrote:To add some humor to this situation can someone please link this thread to the Rybka forum. I'd like to know how many milliseconds it will last.
Felix will destroy it in 3 milliseconds including the time to read it
I made a post on the Rybka forum but the last time I checked the rybka team had been strangely quiet.
They are
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
The 2011 Rybka Fanboy Zealot award goes to, "Banned for Life" on the Rybka forum for this post, I quote,
"Clone has no legal meaning, and outside of cell replication, it doesn't have a clear technical definition either, so I'll leave arguing about whether engine A is a clone of engine B to people who are comfortable arguing about this kind of meaningless stuff.
It is perfectly natural for Vas to be upset about the fact that people have reverse engineered his product and discovered his ideas for building better chess engines. I am 100% sure that if this hadn't happened, Rybka would be at least 150 Elo better than any competitor on equal hardware. It's certainly his prerogative to say that anyone involved in this effort is a dirty SOB.
But if you step back and look around, you will see that this is the normal method that technology advances. For every innovative guy like Vas, there are ten less innovative guys that have other things to offer. Maybe some will build products with fewer bugs, or a better interface. Some may be better at marketing and sales. Having innovators being overtaken and even pushed out by less innovative people or companies is the norm, not the exception.
So now Vas' ideas are out and others are using them. Some would like you to believe that only a small group of upstarts are smart enough to take advantage of these new ideas. Of course, only an imbecile would believe this, but there are no shortage of these types out there. In reality, all good engine design will incorporate lessons learned from Rybka and use them to strengthen their own engines (just as they have done with ideas from Crafty and Fruit and Stockfish).
In this context, did Mr. Letouzy's recent statement really tell us anything we didn't already know? I really don't think it did. Vas has already stated that he studied everything available when he was first developing Rybka. This explicitly included Fruit. Along with being one of the strongest available engines, Fruit was also far and away the most cleanly written program, so it inspired many to use a lot of its architecture. Did Vas use anything from Fruit in the Beta? It's possible, but do we really need to care about this? It really is time to move on to bigger and better things... "
.
