3-Hirn? (moved from T&M)

[mwyoung]

Mark,

In this particular position (as a Centaur and knowing that I was playing against a program) I would probably try something "silly" like 1.g4 .

We are testing the idea that a computer + humans combo is 200 elo stronger then just the computer alone when the humans can pick between 2 candidate best moves of the computer program.

This is going to prove nothing, but it will be a lot of fun. BTW, this is an idea of yours, and it is not related to the 3-hirn, to be clear. Anyway, let's all people play (the other forum is for discussing the theory of this).

Miguel

We are testing what is called the double-frtiz with boss. But here the program is stockfish.

**In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.**

Here the boss is CCC members and they can use programs or just themselves to pick the candidate move to vote on.

You are not correct, I did not invent this, this comes from the 3-hirn website, and it is related to 3-hirn. The protocol is called "Double-Fritz with Boss".

You can go the web site, This is one of his protocols, and he still claims a 200 elo gain for this protocol.

I chose this protocol to test because it always gives us a vote on almost every move. If I used two programs they would agree on the same move most of the time....

This was more fun to test...

From the 3-hirn website :


3-Hirn in Chess

In 1985 I started 3-Hirn with a seminal experiment in the game of chess. In chess the 3-Hirn consists of two different chess computers or chess programs and one human chess player. The computers are started and make their move proposals. Then the human player has the final choice amongst these candidate moves. 3-Hirn plays chess against other persons or chess computers.

Originally I wanted to write a computer program whose input are the move proposals of two "normal" (different) chess programs and whose task is to select one of these candidate moves for execution. The 3-Hirn experiment with a human controller was intended solely to demonstrate that an omnipotent controller program might be able to improve the chess performance of "traditional" programs. However, the success of 3-Hirn in this experiment was so convincing that I performed further 3-Hirn experiments with me as the human controller. (In the meantime automatic coordinators have been programmed for instance by Mathias Feist for Fritz and other chess programs running under "Chessbase" - and by my Ph.D. student Stefan Meyer-Kahlen based on his world champion program "Shredder".)

The following list shows the performances of several 3-Hirn teams with changing computers and programs. In all these teams I was the controller. Since 1985 my chess rating has always been between Elo 1950 and 1850.

Year Strength of the computer programs Strength of 3-Hirn

1985 1500 1700
1987 1800 2100
1989 2050 2250

1992/93 2250 2500
1995 2350 2540

1996* 2350* 2550*

1997** 2550** 2750**


* In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.

[michiguel]

Mark,

In this particular position (as a Centaur and knowing that I was playing against a program) I would probably try something "silly" like 1.g4 .

We are testing the idea that a computer + humans combo is 200 elo stronger then just the computer alone when the humans can pick between 2 candidate best moves of the computer program.

This is going to prove nothing, but it will be a lot of fun. BTW, this is an idea of yours, and it is not related to the 3-hirn, to be clear. Anyway, let's all people play (the other forum is for discussing the theory of this).

Miguel

We are testing what is called the double-frtiz with boss. But here the program is stockfish.

**In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.**

Here the boss is CCC members and they can use programs or just themselves to pick the candidate move to vote on.

You are not correct, I did not invent this, this comes from the 3-hirn website, and it is related to 3-hirn. The protocol is called "Double-Fritz with Boss".

You can go the web site, This is one of his protocols, and he still claims a 200 elo gain for this protocol.

I chose this protocol to test because it always gives us a vote on almost every move. If I used two programs they would agree on the same move most of the time....

This was more fun to test...

From the 3-hirn website :


3-Hirn in Chess

In 1985 I started 3-Hirn with a seminal experiment in the game of chess. In chess the 3-Hirn consists of two different chess computers or chess programs and one human chess player. The computers are started and make their move proposals. Then the human player has the final choice amongst these candidate moves. 3-Hirn plays chess against other persons or chess computers.

Originally I wanted to write a computer program whose input are the move proposals of two "normal" (different) chess programs and whose task is to select one of these candidate moves for execution. The 3-Hirn experiment with a human controller was intended solely to demonstrate that an omnipotent controller program might be able to improve the chess performance of "traditional" programs. However, the success of 3-Hirn in this experiment was so convincing that I performed further 3-Hirn experiments with me as the human controller. (In the meantime automatic coordinators have been programmed for instance by Mathias Feist for Fritz and other chess programs running under "Chessbase" - and by my Ph.D. student Stefan Meyer-Kahlen based on his world champion program "Shredder".)

The following list shows the performances of several 3-Hirn teams with changing computers and programs. In all these teams I was the controller. Since 1985 my chess rating has always been between Elo 1950 and 1850.

Year Strength of the computer programs Strength of 3-Hirn

1985 1500 1700
1987 1800 2100
1989 2050 2250

1992/93 2250 2500
1995 2350 2540

1996* 2350* 2550*

1997** 2550** 2750**


* In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

[mwyoung]

Mark,

In this particular position (as a Centaur and knowing that I was playing against a program) I would probably try something "silly" like 1.g4 .

We are testing the idea that a computer + humans combo is 200 elo stronger then just the computer alone when the humans can pick between 2 candidate best moves of the computer program.

This is going to prove nothing, but it will be a lot of fun. BTW, this is an idea of yours, and it is not related to the 3-hirn, to be clear. Anyway, let's all people play (the other forum is for discussing the theory of this).

Miguel

We are testing what is called the double-frtiz with boss. But here the program is stockfish.

**In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.**

Here the boss is CCC members and they can use programs or just themselves to pick the candidate move to vote on.

You are not correct, I did not invent this, this comes from the 3-hirn website, and it is related to 3-hirn. The protocol is called "Double-Fritz with Boss".

You can go the web site, This is one of his protocols, and he still claims a 200 elo gain for this protocol.

I chose this protocol to test because it always gives us a vote on almost every move. If I used two programs they would agree on the same move most of the time....

This was more fun to test...

From the 3-hirn website :


3-Hirn in Chess

In 1985 I started 3-Hirn with a seminal experiment in the game of chess. In chess the 3-Hirn consists of two different chess computers or chess programs and one human chess player. The computers are started and make their move proposals. Then the human player has the final choice amongst these candidate moves. 3-Hirn plays chess against other persons or chess computers.

Originally I wanted to write a computer program whose input are the move proposals of two "normal" (different) chess programs and whose task is to select one of these candidate moves for execution. The 3-Hirn experiment with a human controller was intended solely to demonstrate that an omnipotent controller program might be able to improve the chess performance of "traditional" programs. However, the success of 3-Hirn in this experiment was so convincing that I performed further 3-Hirn experiments with me as the human controller. (In the meantime automatic coordinators have been programmed for instance by Mathias Feist for Fritz and other chess programs running under "Chessbase" - and by my Ph.D. student Stefan Meyer-Kahlen based on his world champion program "Shredder".)

The following list shows the performances of several 3-Hirn teams with changing computers and programs. In all these teams I was the controller. Since 1985 my chess rating has always been between Elo 1950 and 1850.

Year Strength of the computer programs Strength of 3-Hirn

1985 1500 1700
1987 1800 2100
1989 2050 2250

1992/93 2250 2500
1995 2350 2540

1996* 2350* 2550*

1997** 2550** 2750**


* In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

What is their to discuss you made a claim against me:

"BTW, this is an idea of yours, and it is not related to the 3-hirn, to be clear."

I showed you were in error.

Nothing to discuss.

[kgburcham]

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

what is the correct forum?

[michiguel]

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

what is the correct forum?

This one
T&M is for tournaments and matches. If a game in which the membership participates is played, moves and things related to the game itself belong there. It is already a stretch for that subforum but it has been done already with great fun for everybody. But is needs to be contained, we can spread discussions that belong to the main forum to T&M. People do not like it.

Miguel

[mwyoung]

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

what is the correct forum?

That is a good question, since the moderators are the ones who put this thread here. I had it in general discussion.

Now the moderators say we can't discuss the topic of the thread. The test protocol and vote.

confused....

[michiguel]

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

what is the correct forum?

That is a good question, since the moderators are the ones who put this thread here. I had it in general discussion.

Now the moderators say we can't discuss the topic of the thread. The test protocol and vote.

confused....

Very simple. Here you discuss topics, in T&M you don't.
In T&M you have tournament and matches, here you don't.

People have complained about those things and it triggered the first move when a game started here. When you keep discussing topics in T&M after being warned twice, it triggered the second move of the branch that do not belong there. We had these discussions/complaints in the past about keeping T&M clean. Some members follow that subforum and do not want to have clutter there.

Miguel

[michiguel]

Mark,

In this particular position (as a Centaur and knowing that I was playing against a program) I would probably try something "silly" like 1.g4 .

We are testing the idea that a computer + humans combo is 200 elo stronger then just the computer alone when the humans can pick between 2 candidate best moves of the computer program.

This is going to prove nothing, but it will be a lot of fun. BTW, this is an idea of yours, and it is not related to the 3-hirn, to be clear. Anyway, let's all people play (the other forum is for discussing the theory of this).

Miguel

We are testing what is called the double-frtiz with boss. But here the program is stockfish.

**In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.**

Here the boss is CCC members and they can use programs or just themselves to pick the candidate move to vote on.

You are not correct, I did not invent this, this comes from the 3-hirn website, and it is related to 3-hirn. The protocol is called "Double-Fritz with Boss".

You can go the web site, This is one of his protocols, and he still claims a 200 elo gain for this protocol.

I chose this protocol to test because it always gives us a vote on almost every move. If I used two programs they would agree on the same move most of the time....

This was more fun to test...

From the 3-hirn website :


3-Hirn in Chess

In 1985 I started 3-Hirn with a seminal experiment in the game of chess. In chess the 3-Hirn consists of two different chess computers or chess programs and one human chess player. The computers are started and make their move proposals. Then the human player has the final choice amongst these candidate moves. 3-Hirn plays chess against other persons or chess computers.

Originally I wanted to write a computer program whose input are the move proposals of two "normal" (different) chess programs and whose task is to select one of these candidate moves for execution. The 3-Hirn experiment with a human controller was intended solely to demonstrate that an omnipotent controller program might be able to improve the chess performance of "traditional" programs. However, the success of 3-Hirn in this experiment was so convincing that I performed further 3-Hirn experiments with me as the human controller. (In the meantime automatic coordinators have been programmed for instance by Mathias Feist for Fritz and other chess programs running under "Chessbase" - and by my Ph.D. student Stefan Meyer-Kahlen based on his world champion program "Shredder".)

The following list shows the performances of several 3-Hirn teams with changing computers and programs. In all these teams I was the controller. Since 1985 my chess rating has always been between Elo 1950 and 1850.

Year Strength of the computer programs Strength of 3-Hirn

1985 1500 1700
1987 1800 2100
1989 2050 2250

1992/93 2250 2500
1995 2350 2540

1996* 2350* 2550*

1997** 2550** 2750**


* In 1996 not 3-Hirn itself was used, but a variant called "Double-Fritz with Boss". "Double-Fritz" means the chess program "Fritz 4" in its 2-best mode. In this mode Fritz does not only compute its best move but also its second best proposal. The Boss was me and had the final choice among the two Fritz proposals.

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

What is their to discuss you made a claim against me:

"BTW, this is an idea of yours, and it is not related to the 3-hirn, to be clear."

I showed you were in error.

Nothing to discuss.

I gave you the last word, but you had to have it twice. My last summarizing comment and I am out of the discussion (I only meant to provide a concept that looked like the people forgot or did not know):

I made a comment in another thread about 3-hirn being used rather than using Houdini. The example was two engines+1 human = 3 hirn (triple brain). That is what is 3-hirn. It is even in the text you cite (I bolded above). And that is something that was tested quite a bit. Anything else, I did not claim or said, it was your interpretation/idea.

Miguel

[mwyoung]

Last time, this is not the forum to discuss this.

Miguel

what is the correct forum?

That is a good question, since the moderators are the ones who put this thread here. I had it in general discussion.

Now the moderators say we can't discuss the topic of the thread. The test protocol and vote.

confused....

Very simple. Here you discuss topics, in T&M you don't.
In T&M you have tournament and matches, here you don't.

People have complained about those things and it triggered the first move when a game started here. When you keep discussing topics in T&M after being warned twice, it triggered the second move of the branch that do not belong there. We had these discussions/complaints in the past about keeping T&M clean. Some members follow that subforum and do not want to have clutter there.

Miguel

The only one with issues is Miguel. Miguel dose not like the thread because Miguel is the one who brought up the 3-Hirn experiments, that I am testing.

Miguel posted to me in T&M , Miguel made claims against me in the T&M, Miguel claimed I made up my own test, and protocol, and claimed it had nothing to do with 3-Hirn experiments.

When I showed Miguel his error...

I am warned for posting in T&M

And Miguel false claim is still posted in T&M.

I have been here since the beginning of CCC. I have done nothing wrong. I have always followed the rules of CCC. Miguel's conduct as a moderator is very poor.

I will be back when Miguel is no longer a moderator.

See You later CCC...I'll be back.

Mark Young