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Redundant knight
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov



Joined: 12 Jun 2012
Posts: 5326

PostPost subject: Redundant knight    Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:38 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

I know that many engines apply a penalty for a redundant rook, SF for example. But I wonder how many engines would apply the somewhat less obvious penalty for a redundant knight?

Pieces with same piece type, when repetitive, are of course due some penalty, as they do not coordinate quite well among themselves; in any case, different piece types coordinate better.

[d]6k1/1n6/3n2p1/7p/1P5P/6P1/8/R5K1 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: BK ::
:: BN ::    ::    ::    
   ::    BN    :: BP ::
::    ::    ::    :: BP
   WP    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    WP    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
WR    ::    ::    WK    

2 knights should be stronger than rook + pawn just by their values, but not here. Actually, white has excellent winning chances above.

Trying to fix this by changing the piece values, for example increasing rook value, might well backfire, as this would not be true for many other positions with different piece configurations. But giving a penalty just for a redundant knight would address the specific problem when one side has more than one knight.

[d]6k1/1b6/3n2p1/7p/1P5P/6P1/8/R5K1 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: BK ::
:: BB ::    ::    ::    
   ::    BN    :: BP ::
::    ::    ::    :: BP
   WP    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    WP    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
WR    ::    ::    WK    

If we change one of the knights for a bishop, already white has zero winning chances, so redundancy matters, as in the usual case the bishop value would not be quite different from the knight piece value.

[d]6k1/8/1b1n2p1/p6p/P6P/6P1/3BB3/6K1 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: BK ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   BB    BN    :: BP ::
BP    ::    ::    :: BP
WP ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    WP    
   ::    WB WB ::    ::
::    ::    ::    WK    

Another position. Quite probably black should hold this.

[d]6k1/8/3n2p1/p6p/P1n4P/6P1/8/3BB1K1 w - - 0 1
   ::    ::    :: BK ::
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    BN    :: BP ::
BP    ::    ::    :: BP
WP :: BN ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    WP    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    :: WB WB    WK    

But not this.

[d]r1r3k1/4npp1/2n4p/p7/P4B2/2Q3P1/3N1P1P/6K1 w - - 0 1
BR :: BR ::    :: BK ::
::    ::    BN BP BP    
   :: BN ::    ::    BP
BP    ::    ::    ::    
WP ::    ::    WB    ::
::    WQ    ::    WP    
   ::    WN    WP    WP
::    ::    ::    WK    

It is impossible to draw this one with black. (see, black has 2 pairs of redundant pieces, first the rooks, and secondly the knights)

[d]r1r3k1/4bpp1/2n4p/p7/P4B2/2Q3P1/3N1P1P/6K1 w - - 0 1
BR :: BR ::    :: BK ::
::    ::    BB BP BP    
   :: BN ::    ::    BP
BP    ::    ::    ::    
WP ::    ::    WB    ::
::    WQ    ::    WP    
   ::    WN    WP    WP
::    ::    ::    WK    

But quite possible to draw this one with black, the only change being that black's knights are already not redundant.

So that, I really think that a redundant knight penalty is a must, especially in the endgame, where knights are also much slower and their redundancy is harshly felt. In the middlegame, I think knight redundancy is very small, as knights could find in this phase of the game good outpost squares, and even sometimes support each other in the fight for such squares, but still a slight measure of redundancy is felt.

I would give a redundant knight some 5-8cps normal values penalty in the middlegame, 10-15cps in the endgame. For SF, of course, values would be double.

What is your opinion of a redundant knight penalty?
Any author applying such a penalty?
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:38 am
      Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:03 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:54 am
                  Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:01 pm
      Re: Redundant knight Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:21 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:03 pm
      Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:37 am
      Re: Redundant knight Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:50 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:13 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:36 pm
                        Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:27 pm
                              Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:09 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:32 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:12 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Louis Zulli Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:21 pm
                                          Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:30 pm
                                    Re: Thanks Robert Hyatt Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:51 am
                                          Re: Thanks Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:53 am
      Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:41 pm
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:26 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:03 pm
                        Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:40 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:43 pm
            Re: Redundant knight Joerg Oster Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:33 pm
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:12 pm
                        Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:19 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:35 pm
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:51 pm
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lucas Braesch Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:47 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:23 pm
                                                Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:31 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:31 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:57 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:54 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Matthew R. Brades Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:04 am
                                                                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:57 am
                                                            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:48 am
                                                                  Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:19 am
                                                                        Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:00 am
      Re: Redundant knight Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:22 am
            Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:07 am
                  Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:30 am
                        Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:45 am
                              Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:21 am
                                    Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:31 am
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:38 am
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:38 am
                                                Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:52 am
                                                      Re: Redundant knight Arjun Temurnikar Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:23 pm
                              Re: Redundant knight Kevin Hearn Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:30 am
                                    Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:16 am
                                          Re: Redundant bishop Bernhard Bauer Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:36 am
                                                Re: Redundant bishop Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:10 pm
                                                      Re: Redundant bishop H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:16 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:59 am
                                                Re: Redundant knight Lyudmil Tsvetkov Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:58 pm
                                          Re: Redundant knight H.G.Muller Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:11 pm
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