Cursed win at TCEC

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

btw., just to do the game justice, as too many people are pushing for a draw, games 17 (the current game) & game 18 (return game, H playing white) wre the only book position played so far won by both engines with white. I guess the starting position is simply won for white, so the Dragon system might be altogether a bust, unlike other kingside fianchettoe lines.

H played better than SF though, pushing g5 instead of Nd5:

[d]3qr1k1/1prbppbp/p2p1np1/6P1/P2NP3/1PN1BP2/2PQ4/1K1R3R b - - 0 19

this is obviously won

so, if we have to talk objectivity, the game was won for white rigth after the opening

[hgm]

We could save a lot of time by never playing any moves in any chess game at all, because objectively all games start in a draw position.

Unfortunately (for you), the result of a game is determined at the end, not at the start or in the middle. It is a remarkable fact that only losers feel the need to point out they had a won position somewhere halfway the game. Like bungling a won position would somehow give them some credit.

[Ralph Stoesser]

"FIDE rule 4.1
Each move must be made with one hand only."

Happy coding...

[syzygy]

Actually Stockfish has that knowledge, all its need is that little check box to be unchecked to false. If the operator knew the 50 move rule was not going to follow FIDE 50 move rule, the setting should, have been false. So either way , it is operator error.

But then you get the problem that 50-move rule draws that happen with 6 pieces still on the board are thought by the engine to be a win. But these 6-piece positions are not TB-adjudicated by TCEC, so they have to be won over the board and that will not work (even with the 50-move rule disabled the losing engine will make sure to keep the draw).

So what TCEC would need are 5-piece tables that ignore the 50-move rule, and custom-built 6-piece tables that do take into account the 50-move rule as long as the 50 moves happen before a conversion to a 5-piece position. This is not a very satisfactory situation.

The same applies to ICCF but with 5 replaced by 6: they need 6-piece tables that ignore the 50-move rule and custom-built 7-piece tables that take into account the 50-move rule as long as the 50 moves happen before a conversion to a 6-piece position.

[syzygy]

no one knows how the game would have ended, as top engine analysis is imperfect, even in relatively simple positions.

I am afraid you have far too little knowledge of the engines and how they deal with tablebases.

It is 100% certain that the game would have ended in a draw. Thanks to its tablebases, H5 knew how to keep the mate beyond the 50-move horizon.

Try it out for yourself:
https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=K5Q1/8/ ... _b_-_-_0_1

You are white and may play whatever moves you like. Black always plays the move shown at the top.

You won't get DTZ down by more than 1 ply on each move and black won't let DTZ go down by more than 1 ply on each move. Since you start at DTZ=124, you need more than 60 moves to get to a capture or mate. The 50-move rule kicks in after 50 moves. QED.

Now that you have learned something new, you might want to reconsider your earlier statements in this thread.

[MikeB]

Actually Stockfish has that knowledge, all its need is that little check box to be unchecked to false. If the operator knew the 50 move rule was not going to follow FIDE 50 move rule, the setting should, have been false. So either way , it is operator error.

But then you get the problem that 50-move rule draws that happen with 6 pieces still on the board are thought by the engine to be a win. But these 6-piece positions are not TB-adjudicated by TCEC, so they have to be won over the board and that will not work (even with the 50-move rule disabled the losing engine will make sure to keep the draw).

So what TCEC would need are 5-piece tables that ignore the 50-move rule, and custom-built 6-piece tables that do take into account the 50-move rule as long as the 50 moves happen before a conversion to a 5-piece position. This is not a very satisfactory situation.

The same applies to ICCF but with 5 replaced by 6: they need 6-piece tables that ignore the 50-move rule and custom-built 7-piece tables that take into account the 50-move rule as long as the 50 moves happen before a conversion to a 6-piece position.

Good point , it does sound a whole lot simpler just to follow the FIDE rules that govern the way most people play chess...why start start adjudicating draws (what people would consider to be a draw) as wins in the first place?
Using a faulty automated adjudicator is a little absurd in the first place.

[whereagles]

guess the starting position is simply won for white, so the Dragon system might be altogether a bust, unlike other kingside fianchettoe lines

Well, this particular dragon yugo attack line is know to be better for white. The lines with black replying h5 to h4 are more balanced.

[Ralph Stoesser]

Actually Stockfish has that knowledge, all its need is that little check box to be unchecked to false. If the operator knew the 50 move rule was not going to follow FIDE 50 move rule, the setting should, have been false. So either way , it is operator error.

But then you get the problem that 50-move rule draws that happen with 6 pieces still on the board are thought by the engine to be a win. But these 6-piece positions are not TB-adjudicated by TCEC, so they have to be won over the board and that will not work (even with the 50-move rule disabled the losing engine will make sure to keep the draw).

So what TCEC would need are 5-piece tables that ignore the 50-move rule, and custom-built 6-piece tables that do take into account the 50-move rule as long as the 50 moves happen before a conversion to a 5-piece position. This is not a very satisfactory situation.

The same applies to ICCF but with 5 replaced by 6: they need 6-piece tables that ignore the 50-move rule and custom-built 7-piece tables that take into account the 50-move rule as long as the 50 moves happen before a conversion to a 6-piece position.

Good point , it does sound a whole lot simpler just to follow the FIDE rules that govern the way most people play chess...why start start adjudicating draws (what people would consider to be a draw) as wins in the first place?
Using a faulty automated adjudicator is a little absurd in the first place.

Just wait a little until cutechess can handle 6 piece tb adjucation and that problem will disappear. There is already a pull request under review.

It may be technically easier to follow the 50 move draw rule in all cases, but many people feel that would be against the main objectives of the game of chess (See article 1.1 - 1.3 FIDE rules for reference). If one side can prove to have an unavoidable checkmate, the game should not end with a draw. It simply feels wrong. Checkmates should take precedence.

[syzygy]

If one side can prove to have an unavoidable checkmate, the game should not end with a draw. It simply feels wrong. Checkmates should take precedence.

But you seem to be alone in this: http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62175

[Laskos]

Some people commenting in this thread must apply for jobs as lawyers or jurors in some countryside court. This passion for details of legalistic matters and the deepness of these details make me nostalgic of Rybka/Vasik threads.