Cursed win at TCEC

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:51 am

syzygy wrote:
Evert wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[d]8/4n3/4k3/8/8/4K1B1/2B5/8 w - - 0 1

why instruct the engine above position is a draw, when SF finds mate very quickly even at bullet?
I'm not sure what point you think you're making?
The position is apparently mate in 43 moves (starting with 1. Bb3+), so the 50 move rule is irrelevant even if the knight is not captured (which I haven't checked). Source: Nalimov tables from http://www.k4it.de/?topic=egtb&lang=en.
Yes, one side to this discussion is rather unwilling to understand the stuff he's talking about.

https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/4n3/4 ... _w_-_-_0_1

DTZ=59, so white can force a mate or winning capture in under 30 moves.

If this were impossible to win within the 50-move rule, SF would be expected not to find a mate in the first place. After all, SF knows about and accepts the 50-move rule.

I can not go check each and every tbs position whether is a longer or shorter than 50 mate. The general rule say BB vs N 66 moves longest mate, there are shorter mates of course. the point was to demonstrate that SF is able to deliver mate on its own in such positions, so why deprive it of a well-deserved win?

do not have quick access as well as the time to check tbs now, I hope you will help out with this, but here is a position I presume is longer than 50 mate:

[d]2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1

actually, a variation of the TCEC game

I presume SF will be able to deliver mate on its own above at blitz TC, will it not?

Is somebody able to check this?

duncan · Post by **duncan** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:30 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: do not have quick access as well as the time to check tbs now, I hope you will help out with this, but here is a position I presume is longer than 50 mate:

[d]2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1

actually, a variation of the TCEC game

I presume SF will be able to deliver mate on its own above at blitz TC, will it not?

Is somebody able to check this?

qd4 -d6 win in 31

Joerg Oster · Post by **Joerg Oster** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:26 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
syzygy wrote:
Evert wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[d]8/4n3/4k3/8/8/4K1B1/2B5/8 w - - 0 1

why instruct the engine above position is a draw, when SF finds mate very quickly even at bullet?
I'm not sure what point you think you're making?
The position is apparently mate in 43 moves (starting with 1. Bb3+), so the 50 move rule is irrelevant even if the knight is not captured (which I haven't checked). Source: Nalimov tables from http://www.k4it.de/?topic=egtb&lang=en.
Yes, one side to this discussion is rather unwilling to understand the stuff he's talking about.

https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/4n3/4 ... _w_-_-_0_1

DTZ=59, so white can force a mate or winning capture in under 30 moves.

If this were impossible to win within the 50-move rule, SF would be expected not to find a mate in the first place. After all, SF knows about and accepts the 50-move rule.
I can not go check each and every tbs position whether is a longer or shorter than 50 mate. The general rule say BB vs N 66 moves longest mate, there are shorter mates of course. the point was to demonstrate that SF is able to deliver mate on its own in such positions, so why deprive it of a well-deserved win?

do not have quick access as well as the time to check tbs now, I hope you will help out with this, but here is a position I presume is longer than 50 mate:

[d]2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1

actually, a variation of the TCEC game

I presume SF will be able to deliver mate on its own above at blitz TC, will it not?

Is somebody able to check this?

Why don't you check yourself?

Here https://syzygy-tables.info/ you can insert the FEN of the position you want to know,
and you get all information you need.

You can even download the full PGN of the main dtz winning line.

Code: Select all

&#91;Event ""&#93;
&#91;Site "http&#58;//syzygy-tables.info/?fen=2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3_w_-_-_0_1"&#93;
&#91;Date "2016.11.25"&#93;
&#91;White "Syzygy"&#93;
&#91;Black "Syzygy"&#93;
&#91;Result "1-0"&#93;
&#91;SetUp "1"&#93;
&#91;FEN "2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"&#93;
&#91;Annotator "syzygy-tables.info"&#93;

&#123; DTZ 43 &#125; 1. Qd6 Bc7 2. Qe6+ Kd8 3. Kd2 Bc8 4. Qc6 Bd7 5. Qf6+ Kc8 6. Kc3 Kb7 7. Kc4 Bb6 8. Kd5 Bb5 9. Qe7+ Ka6 10. Kd6 Ba7 11. Kc7 Bb6+ 12. Kb8 Bc4 13. Qb4 Bb5 14. Qa3+ Ba5 15. Qb3 Bb6 16. Qa2+ Ba5 17. Qd5 Bb4 18. Qb7+ Ka5 19. Qa7+ Ba6 20. Kc7 Kb5 21. Qb6+ Ka4 22. Qxa6+ &#123; KQvKB with DTZ -16 &#125; 22... Kb3 23. Qd3+ Kb2 24. Kb6 Bc3 25. Kb5 Kb3 26. Kc5 Kb2 27. Kc4 Ba5 28. Qb3+ Ka1 29. Qa3+ Kb1 30. Qxa5 &#123; KQvK with DTZ -6 &#125; 30... Kb2 31. Qd2+ Ka1 32. Kb3 Kb1 33. Qb2# &#123; Checkmate &#125; 1-0

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:15 pm

Milos wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:looking at TCEC, SF shows frequently more than 30 000 000 tbs hits, if 1% of those are so called "cursed wins", this makes 300 000 cursed win hits. Imagine the impact on search decisions, gameplay and picking the best move.
Stop trolling and behaving retarded when you are not.
0% (and in words ZERO) of TB hits are cursed wins for SF or H. Reason is, they have correct TBs implemented that respect the rules of chess i.e. 50 moves rule.
Claiming to have an imaginary win based on some crappy TBs output is like requesting from the referee in FIDE match to adjudicate win in some position just because you announced mate in N (>50) moves claiming there is a win and you know it without any intentions to actually demonstrate it. Try doing it in official match and tell us your experiences. I bet you'd be laughed like hell and ppl would think you've gonne crazy.

for reference, "cursed win" is a definition for this type of positions, coming from Ronald's SF tablebase code. (I do not know if it is also a more general term)

so, SF him/her/itself (another retarded manifestation) regards such tbs positions as "cursed wins", it was not my invention of any sort.

if you want to help, just tell us, is SF able to win the Q vs 2 bishops tbs position I posted, or not. That would be of conisderable help for the discussion, labelling on the other hand is not.

hgm · Post by **hgm** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:23 pm

Well, Duncan already posted that it is a mate in 31. So what else do you need to make yourself look foolish?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:26 pm

Joerg Oster wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
syzygy wrote:
Evert wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[d]8/4n3/4k3/8/8/4K1B1/2B5/8 w - - 0 1

why instruct the engine above position is a draw, when SF finds mate very quickly even at bullet?
I'm not sure what point you think you're making?
The position is apparently mate in 43 moves (starting with 1. Bb3+), so the 50 move rule is irrelevant even if the knight is not captured (which I haven't checked). Source: Nalimov tables from http://www.k4it.de/?topic=egtb&lang=en.
Yes, one side to this discussion is rather unwilling to understand the stuff he's talking about.

https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/4n3/4 ... _w_-_-_0_1

DTZ=59, so white can force a mate or winning capture in under 30 moves.

If this were impossible to win within the 50-move rule, SF would be expected not to find a mate in the first place. After all, SF knows about and accepts the 50-move rule.
I can not go check each and every tbs position whether is a longer or shorter than 50 mate. The general rule say BB vs N 66 moves longest mate, there are shorter mates of course. the point was to demonstrate that SF is able to deliver mate on its own in such positions, so why deprive it of a well-deserved win?

do not have quick access as well as the time to check tbs now, I hope you will help out with this, but here is a position I presume is longer than 50 mate:

[d]2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1

actually, a variation of the TCEC game

I presume SF will be able to deliver mate on its own above at blitz TC, will it not?

Is somebody able to check this?
Why don't you check yourself?

Here https://syzygy-tables.info/ you can insert the FEN of the position you want to know,
and you get all information you need.

You can even download the full PGN of the main dtz winning line.
Code: Select all
&#91;Event ""&#93;
&#91;Site "http&#58;//syzygy-tables.info/?fen=2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3_w_-_-_0_1"&#93;
&#91;Date "2016.11.25"&#93;
&#91;White "Syzygy"&#93;
&#91;Black "Syzygy"&#93;
&#91;Result "1-0"&#93;
&#91;SetUp "1"&#93;
&#91;FEN "2kb4/1b6/8/8/3Q4/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1"&#93;
&#91;Annotator "syzygy-tables.info"&#93;

&#123; DTZ 43 &#125; 1. Qd6 Bc7 2. Qe6+ Kd8 3. Kd2 Bc8 4. Qc6 Bd7 5. Qf6+ Kc8 6. Kc3 Kb7 7. Kc4 Bb6 8. Kd5 Bb5 9. Qe7+ Ka6 10. Kd6 Ba7 11. Kc7 Bb6+ 12. Kb8 Bc4 13. Qb4 Bb5 14. Qa3+ Ba5 15. Qb3 Bb6 16. Qa2+ Ba5 17. Qd5 Bb4 18. Qb7+ Ka5 19. Qa7+ Ba6 20. Kc7 Kb5 21. Qb6+ Ka4 22. Qxa6+ &#123; KQvKB with DTZ -16 &#125; 22... Kb3 23. Qd3+ Kb2 24. Kb6 Bc3 25. Kb5 Kb3 26. Kc5 Kb2 27. Kc4 Ba5 28. Qb3+ Ka1 29. Qa3+ Kb1 30. Qxa5 &#123; KQvK with DTZ -6 &#125; 30... Kb2 31. Qd2+ Ka1 32. Kb3 Kb1 33. Qb2# &#123; Checkmate &#125; 1-0

thanks Joerg.

because in that case there will be no one to ask questions and suggest new rules...

I have another request for you or anyone else capable of helping:

[d]K5Q1/8/8/8/5bb1/6k1/8/8 w - - 0 1

this already should be tbs win in more than 50.

is SF able to deliver mate in blitz mode without tbs?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:35 pm

hgm wrote:Well, Duncan already posted that it is a mate in 31. So what else do you need to make yourself look foolish?

getting a reply from Duncan, and asking Milos the same thing, to acknowledge SF is able to mate easily, are 2 different things.

besides, I did not ask if it is mate, but whether SF is able to deliver the mate without tbs. also 2 different things.

sometimes people are also in a hurry and post, before reading the whole thread.

the point is, if SF is able to mate below:

[d]K5Q1/8/8/8/5bb1/6k1/8/8 w - - 0 1

why adjudicate draw? why on Earth?

that is the real question, and not whether I have posted a mate shorter than 50 instead of a longer one. I guess everyone understands that.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov · Post by **Lyudmil Tsvetkov** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:43 pm

zenpawn wrote:
whereagles wrote:Actually, if you check TCEC page at facebook, Anton says he's considering changing the score. Quite likely he's also reading our discussion.
That's good news. In that post, he mentions: "Both engine authors have submitted their opinion to the TCEC team." Hearkening back to my question some pages ago, I'm glad to hear the devs did indeed write to the organizer, with presumably even the SF team in favor of it being a draw (yes?).

what else would the SF team say, they are all chivalrous, you know.

Evert · Post by **Evert** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:44 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: [d]K5Q1/8/8/8/5bb1/6k1/8/8 w - - 0 1

this already should be tbs win in more than 50.

is SF able to deliver mate in blitz mode without tbs?

The position is a cursed win, so not against optimal defence. Against sub-optimal defence? Maybe, but who cares?

hgm · Post by **hgm** » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:45 pm

That is not the position you asked about, which was a mate in 31. It seems you are back to the TCEC position.

Of course Stockfish cannot win that,.with or without EGT (against good defense). Or anyone else,for that matter. Because it is a theoretical draw.

Cursed win at TCEC

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule

Re: fortress_draw_rule