The point is simple. Before the adjudication, there was KQPP from stockfish and KRBB from move 55. [d]1r6/K2Q1b2/8/6k1/PP3b2/8/8/8 b - - 1 55
If there were no tablebase and no 50 moves rules there will be no way Houdini lose the game. However due to 50 moves , Houdini(same to stockfish) accessed TB partially only and Houdini chose the inferior moves from the tables and lose the game. However the moves Houdini chose were all TB draw within 50 moves of tablebase.
For example, the conditions are similar to announcement to the students like that
1. All questions will come from this book
2. You dont need to read beyond 50 pages of this book and
The exam questions come from beyond 50 pages
And the teacher said you have responsibility to read this book thoroughly you failed the exam cos you didnt read the book.
So condition 2 contradict/mislead condition 1 and the game finally ended unfavorable/unfair result.
Cursed win at TCEC
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
-
- Posts: 708
- Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:34 am
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Last edited by Nay Lin Tun on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
- Posts: 4607
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:33 am
- Location: Regensburg, Germany
- Full name: Guenther Simon
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
You are hopeless, but that doesn't come unexpected.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
It is you and Harm that miss the point, not me.
-
- Posts: 1535
- Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:30 am
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Or better yet, what would've happened if Houdini had used 6-men Nalimov, instead of syzygy?whereagles wrote:Who knows what would have happened if they had it disabled?
-
- Posts: 27808
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
- Location: Amsterdam
- Full name: H G Muller
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Wrong. The article says the position is a draw, because no mate or winning conversion can be forced within 50 moves.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Specifically, for queen vs 2 bishops, the article says:
Queen versus two bishops: A queen has a theoretical forced win against two bishops in most positions, but the win may require up to seventy-one moves (a draw can be claimed after fifty moves under the rules of competition, see fifty-move rule); there is one drawing fortress position for the two bishops
So, it is a win, but the engine 100-plies counter gets it as a draw.
That the Queen can capture both Bishops already on the first move by jumping over them if this had been Japanese Checkers is not very relevant.
It seems you do not understand the rules of Chess.
-
- Posts: 613
- Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:03 am
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
The position is clearly drawn by FIDE rules. So the result should be changed.
If TCEC wants to deviate from FIDE rules to count cursed wins as real wins then that should be explicitly written in the rules. But personally I'd prefer to stick with FIDE rules.
If TCEC wants to deviate from FIDE rules to count cursed wins as real wins then that should be explicitly written in the rules. But personally I'd prefer to stick with FIDE rules.
Joona Kiiski
-
- Posts: 27808
- Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
- Location: Amsterdam
- Full name: H G Muller
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Actually they did write in the rules explicitly that the 50-move rule does apply.
-
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:59 pm
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Correct.zamar wrote:The position is clearly drawn by FIDE rules. So the result should be changed.
If TCEC wants to deviate from FIDE rules to count cursed wins as real wins then that should be explicitly written in the rules. But personally I'd prefer to stick with FIDE rules.
Computerchess should be played under the gerneral chessrules according to the FIDE.
The result of the game is a draw.
TL
-
- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
they also wrote that Cutechess adjudicates automatically tablebase positions. what is the main rule and what the secondary one?hgm wrote:Actually they did write in the rules explicitly that the 50-move rule does apply.
I guess a won position is simply won, and the end position is won. FIDE rules concerning 50-moves draw is definitely a remnant from the past, and should be changed, the sooner the better. Also, it is not clear to me why should engine competitions follow FIDE rules. The 50-moves rule is FIDE-valid, simply because humans get tired after very long games and, most importantly, because years ago, when this specific FIDE rule was written, computer analysis still did not prove there are plentiful positions theoretically won for the stronger side without captures or pawn moves only after move 50. As seen in the wikipedia article I referenced, there are ta least several hunder theoretically won pawnless endgames after move 50, and they do happen frequently enough. (we have see this at TCEC at other times too)
So, what should be done, is for a specific engine protocol to change the 50-moves rule to a larger number, at least 100, maybe referring only to specifically known tablebase positions. The 50-moves rule migth hold true for any other case(not to make the game too long), but, in the case of a known tablebase position, the rule might be changed to 100 moves.
For example, if pawnless endgame (where primarily those positions occur) and tablebase win, 50-moves rule=2*50-moves rule. Not difficult to do, is it?
-
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:11 am
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
They gave the SYZYGY to the engine. The SYZYGY follow the FIDE ruler.
But they gave the GAVIOTA to the GUI. The GAVIOTA don't follow the FIDE ruler.
The GAVIOTA has the wrong data. It is the bug. They must give the same to engine and to GUI.
They say they follow FIDE 50 move rule. They must give SYZYGY to the GUI.
Game is draw by TCEC rules. GAVIATO is WRONG. TCEC judge is WRONG.
But they gave the GAVIOTA to the GUI. The GAVIOTA don't follow the FIDE ruler.
The GAVIOTA has the wrong data. It is the bug. They must give the same to engine and to GUI.
They say they follow FIDE 50 move rule. They must give SYZYGY to the GUI.
Game is draw by TCEC rules. GAVIATO is WRONG. TCEC judge is WRONG.
-
- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: Cursed win at TCEC
the end position is won for white. why adjudicate a won position as draw?Rochester wrote:They gave the SYZYGY to the engine. The SYZYGY follow the FIDE ruler.
But they gave the GAVIOTA to the GUI. The GAVIOTA don't follow the FIDE ruler.
The GAVIOTA has the wrong data. It is the bug. They must give the same to engine and to GUI.
They say they follow FIDE 50 move rule. They must give SYZYGY to the GUI.
Game is draw by TCEC rules. GAVIATO is WRONG. TCEC judge is WRONG.