I find this whole controversy rather silly. Because TCEC does much worse things to changes results of their tournament by design. I am sure this was an over site, but using dubious openings to force more decisive games is by design. And skews results much more than this adjudication. But let's get all bent out of shape about an oversight by TCEC.hgm wrote:There is of course always some unfairness in adjudication, in that you assume perfect play for engines that might neot be able to deliver that. But you could argue that with participants like these sub-optimal play would be very rare anyway.mwyoung wrote:This is what happens when you have rules to adjudicate games, and not let the programs play out the moves.
But this is much worse. It is whet happens when you have ERRONEOUS rules to adjudicate games.The rules assume the programs are stupid and will blunder,and decide the result accordingly.
This shows how much better the WinBoard approach to tablebase adjudication is: rather than assigning a result, it would just force the engines to move practically instantly (from their own tablebase), to see what they would make of it. That achieves the desired result (namely almost instant termination of the game) without introducing artifacts.
Cursed win at TCEC
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
How can the choice of openings skew results? The engines always get to play both sides of each opening, not?
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
The thing is that it would have been so easy to correct the mistake. What went wrong did not affect game play at all. It only affected the points that were awarded after the game finished. So no need to replay or anything, just award the points correctly.mwyoung wrote:I find this whole controversy rather silly. Because TCEC does much worse things to changes results of their tournament by design. I am sure this was an over site, but using dubious openings to force more decisive games is by design. And skews results much more than this adjudication. But let's get all bent out of shape about an oversight by TCEC.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Because I said dubious opens. As in not sound. Depending on the strength difference of the two engines playing the opening. This will change results. This is not a criticism of TCEC. I understand why they want more decisive games.hgm wrote:How can the choice of openings skew results? The engines always get to play both sides of each opening, not?
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
None of the TCEC openings I've observed so far are dubious or crazily skewed. They are complex with no opportunity to trade into a boring endgame straight out of the gate.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
I still don't see why you think that would skew the results, if each engine has to play both sides. In the worst case the start position is a certain win, and then they would just get a 1-1 on that line, and it is as if the game was never played, and there were just fewer games.mwyoung wrote:Because I said dubious opens. As in not sound.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Personally, I don't care about TCEC one way or the other. I just get annoyed (in general) by wilful ignorance.mwyoung wrote: I find this whole controversy rather silly. Because TCEC does much worse things to changes results of their tournament by design. I am sure this was an over site, but using dubious openings to force more decisive games is by design. And skews results much more than this adjudication. But let's get all bent out of shape about an oversight by TCEC.
In this particular case: with the 50 move rule in play and under perfect play by both engines (guaranteed by the use of tablebases) the relevant position is a draw. There's simply no room for discussion.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
I say "yes". The same they deny the climate change also deny 50 mover and voted the Zaphod Beeblebrox for the president.Evert wrote:In this particular case: with the 50 move rule in play and under perfect play by both engines (guaranteed by the use of tablebases) the relevant position is a draw. There's simply no room for discussion.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
I agree. This discussion is simply ridiculous.I just get annoyed (in general) by wilful ignorance.
In this particular case: with the 50 move rule in play and under perfect play by both engines (guaranteed by the use of tablebases) the relevant position is a draw. There's simply no room for discussion.
Ideas=science. Simplification=engineering.
Without ideas there is nothing to simplify.
Without ideas there is nothing to simplify.
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Re: Cursed win at TCEC
Hey, you leave Zaphod out of this. :)
Threads like this one are useful whatever their outcome. They tend to bring out differences in individual posters' thinking, and those who cannot handle simple logic reasoning and/or lack common sense stick out like a sore thumb. Then in other threads you have a better idea whose statements to take with a pound of salt or perhaps ignore out of hand.
Threads like this one are useful whatever their outcome. They tend to bring out differences in individual posters' thinking, and those who cannot handle simple logic reasoning and/or lack common sense stick out like a sore thumb. Then in other threads you have a better idea whose statements to take with a pound of salt or perhaps ignore out of hand.