Most of current chess eval can be modelised as a single neuron (or perceptron). AlphaGo uses many neurons. That's a big difference.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:With what is this different from a self-tuning software, as widely used in autotuning engines, applied on a very large scale/involving tremendous hardware?
AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
-
- Posts: 433
- Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:04 am
- Location: France
- Full name: Richard Delorme
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
Richard Delorme
-
- Posts: 4190
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
As fair as using SF running on a single CPU Haswell and 100 Ultrascale+ FPGA chips used only for evaluation. Sorry, but there is no f from fair in this comparison. If we miraculously got Alpha0 source code for x64, we would need around 2000 Haswell cores for the similar performance, or at least 100 top of the range 1080Ti GPUs.abulmo2 wrote:Details about Google's TPU are available here.Milos wrote:It actually is, instead of 4TPUs required to run Alpha0 so far, on x64 hardware one would need around 2000 Haswell cores to achieve the same speed of NN
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4haf ... xtcEk/view
For NN inference, 1 TPU is around 15-30 times faster than an Haswell (with multiple cores, so your figure of 2000x faster for 4 TPUs vs 1 core is right), but other comparable properties favor the CPU:
TPU vs CPU
Die size: TPU is < half size of an Haswell
Frequency: 700 Mhz vs 2300
Power: 40W vs 145W
Memory Bandwitdth: 51 vs 34
The TPU is much more efficient than a CPU (for NN inference), but it does not eat more power, occupies more size, etc.
So using 4 TPU vs 64 Haswell cores, is fair I think.
-
- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
Apart from frequency, how would the other parameters affect speed?abulmo2 wrote:Details about Google's TPU are available here.Milos wrote:It actually is, instead of 4TPUs required to run Alpha0 so far, on x64 hardware one would need around 2000 Haswell cores to achieve the same speed of NN
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4haf ... xtcEk/view
For NN inference, 1 TPU is around 15-30 times faster than an Haswell (with multiple cores, so your figure of 2000x faster for 4 TPUs vs 1 core is right), but other comparable properties favor the CPU:
TPU vs CPU
Die size: TPU is < half size of an Haswell
Frequency: 700 Mhz vs 2300
Power: 40W vs 145W
Memory Bandwitdth: 51 vs 34
The TPU is much more efficient than a CPU (for NN inference), but it does not eat more power, occupies more size, etc.
So using 4 TPU vs 64 Haswell cores, is fair I think.
Is not frequency already factored in the '20 times faster assessment'?
2000/1, with added SMP inefficiencies, will make it 3000/1, 3000/64,
in what way could that be fair?
-
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:36 am
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
Or 4 V100s which will be available in 2018, or you can order in a workstation now for 70k.
You seem to think GPU progress and process node shrinks are just going to stop. V100 is on 12nm and 7nm chips will have mass availability in 2018.
It is over. Deal with it. Or not.
You seem to think GPU progress and process node shrinks are just going to stop. V100 is on 12nm and 7nm chips will have mass availability in 2018.
It is over. Deal with it. Or not.
-
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:26 pm
- Location: Switzerland
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
I agree with you.
Also what people who claim the HW was much faster..... what they don’t understand is that the thing learned from itself in a very short time!
What if we now give it 1 Year to further learn?
Side note, I looked at the games and they are really impressive!
Also what people who claim the HW was much faster..... what they don’t understand is that the thing learned from itself in a very short time!
What if we now give it 1 Year to further learn?
Side note, I looked at the games and they are really impressive!
-
- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
Many neurons, but of what quality?abulmo2 wrote:Most of current chess eval can be modelised as a single neuron (or perceptron). AlphaGo uses many neurons. That's a big difference.Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:With what is this different from a self-tuning software, as widely used in autotuning engines, applied on a very large scale/involving tremendous hardware?
It should be very bad, in case with 1000 times more neurons than SF, it will achieve 400 elo lower strength on single core.
-
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:36 am
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
How many Elo do you have with 1 brain cell?
-
- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
Hardware has no bearing on human life.jhellis3 wrote:Or 4 V100s which will be available in 2018, or you can order in a workstation now for 70k.
You seem to think GPU progress and process node shrinks are just going to stop. V100 is on 12nm and 7nm chips will have mass availability in 2018.
It is over. Deal with it. Or not.
-
- Posts: 4190
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:47 am
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
7nm chips in 2018, give me a break. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about beside quoting some marketing BS.jhellis3 wrote:Or 4 V100s which will be available in 2018, or you can order in a workstation now for 70k.
You seem to think GPU progress and process node shrinks are just going to stop. V100 is on 12nm and 7nm chips will have mass availability in 2018.
It is over. Deal with it. Or not.
First you have to understand basic staff about NN inference, difference between floating point single or double precision operation and int8 multiplication done in TPU.
Performance-wise 2nd gen TPU is still 5-10x compared to V100 that we first have to see come out and that comparing marketing data from the advertisement, not real numbers.
-
- Posts: 6052
- Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm
Re: AlphaZero beats AlphaGo Zero, Stockfish, and Elmo
More than you with a 100.jhellis3 wrote:How many Elo do you have with 1 brain cell?