Alpha Zero vs Stockfish 8 tournament conditions.

[Ras]

The match was fair, and AlphaGo did NOT have massive hardware advantage, and it does NOT make sense to ask for it to run on x86. Just like it would not make sense to ask for Stockfish to run on TPUs.

Oh, the TPUs are more expensive? Of course they are because they are a brand new development, but the whole point of this match, from Google's point of view, was to prove that this hardware is suited to neural network applications. It was not specialised hardware like with Hydra or Deep Blue. It was general purpose NN hardware. The same hardware also plays Go and Shogi, something that Hydra or Deep Blue could not do - and neither could a Stockfish version boosted by FPGAs.

Oh, the hardware isn't for sale? Wrong point. Google doesn't sell them now because they can use their current monopoly better with cloud offers. But that creates a demand, and since Google has proven how capable these things are, others will catch up.

Just like others caught up when Intel started to put the 4004 into production, the first microprocessor actually available on the market. In fact, I think that Intel should finally wake up here after their failed adventures from Itanic to challenging ARM. Or maybe even AMD since they already have GPU competence. Or Nvidia.

Second, these TPUs with neural networks scale better than traditional cores which are subject to the law of diminishing returns, which is why Johnny with 2000 cores is still weaker than Stockfish. That's why these TPUs are not a one-time artifact like Hydra or Deep Blue - they are here to stay and change computing.

The energy consumption was comparable, that's the central point here, because that's what will determine the cost of the whole approach in the medium run.

[Milos]

The energy consumption was comparable, that's the central point here, because that's what will determine the cost of the whole approach in the medium run.

That's the only meaningful comparison that can be made, for others there is zero argument, so unrealistic and pointless, basically just fan cheering, so no point really commenting.
But the argument that energy consumption will determine cost in the medium run is so ridiculous that I can't avoid laughing at it despite best effort.
You seems to think that computing hardware prices are formed like house heating systems, the more heat it produces the more expensive it is, I mean that's just brilliant, brilliant .

[Ras]

But the argument that energy consumption will determine cost in the medium run is so ridiculous

If you have two solutions with similar output, but one of them needs massively more energy, then the latter one usually isn't competetive. Energy consumption is a strong indicator here.

Obviously, I'm assuming that there will be competition that will drive down the hardware cost of TPU-like architectures in the future, but that's what I also wrote in my previous posting. Of course, in that scenario, you are welcome to use a 1000 CPU cores instead of one TPU for a NN application. Guess which solution will be inferior - lo and behold, that happens to be the one with more energy consumption.

[MikeB]

The only thing I question is that AlphaZero had an opening book based on learning over millions of games, whereas it looks as though Stockfish may not have used an opening book at all.

+1 I believe you are 100% correct!

[CheckersGuy]

The only thing I question is that AlphaZero had an opening book based on learning over millions of games, whereas it looks as though Stockfish may not have used an opening book at all.

+1 I believe you are 100% correct!

I still think that calling the weights of the NN an "opening boook" is kinda misleading. It is not an opening book as you would think of one

[Milos]

The only thing I question is that AlphaZero had an opening book based on learning over millions of games, whereas it looks as though Stockfish may not have used an opening book at all.

+1 I believe you are 100% correct!

I still think that calling the weights of the NN an "opening boook" is kinda misleading. It is not an opening book as you would think of one

Why, when NN evaluation function is exactly what an opening book gives you - for a given position a probability of selecting each move and wining probability of that position? And the closer position to the root, the better tuned weights are for it.

[clumma]

The only thing I question is that AlphaZero had an opening book based on learning over millions of games, whereas it looks as though Stockfish may not have used an opening book at all.

Stockfish was fine out of the opening (in the 10 games at 1 min/move). AlphaZero also played 1200 games against SF from known opening positions and won with a score of 733 (see page 6 of the paper).

-Carl

[Nay Lin Tun]

It is simple, and without doubt, machine can learn better than human. First step, machines can calculate better than human ( people already accept it). This is the next step of technological revolution ( machines can learn better than human).It would be a bitter experience for many programmers who spent signifiant years of their life to teach a machine(program a machine) rather than let the machine learn by his own.

[Zenmastur]

It's been a long time since I have seen such BS posted on this board. Did IQ's suddenly drop while I was away?

It's clear to me that few posts on this thread are objective. Many posts are filled with insults, misinformation, and in some cases, out right lies. What the hell is wrong with you people?

I suggest you get a grip on reality!

Regards,

Forrest

[shrapnel]

It is simple, and without doubt, machine can learn better than human. First step, machines can calculate better than human ( people already accept it). This is the next step of technological revolution ( machines can learn better than human).It would be a bitter experience for many programmers who spent significant years of their life to teach a machine(program a machine) rather than let the machine learn by his own.

That's EXACTLY what's sticking in their craw.
Of course, Google not giving more information gives them an opportunity to downplay the achievement of Alpha-Zero.