Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
Pablo has defeated Stockfish by closing the position and beating it (or rather, a lagging GUI) on the clock.zullil wrote:As far as I know, Stockfish has only been defeated by engines that use alpha-beta (and, of course, by Lyudmil and Pablo).
i really don't care that Stockfish loss in such a maner...zullil wrote:Only if Stockfish was "crippled" to such a degree as to no longer be a very strong opponent. Was that the case?pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
I do not have trouble accepting that Stockfish lost the 100 game match...syzygy wrote:I wonder why you have trouble accepting that the Stockfish that lost the 100-game match is an amazingly strong engine.pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
I have not seen this attitude among any of the engine developers (it is possible that I missed one).
No, I cannot explain why that is such a big issue for so many people when it is really just small potatoes.pilgrimdan wrote:I do not have trouble accepting that Stockfish lost the 100 game match...syzygy wrote:I wonder why you have trouble accepting that the Stockfish that lost the 100-game match is an amazingly strong engine.pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
I have not seen this attitude among any of the engine developers (it is possible that I missed one).
the 'trouble' I am having is why do it under non-optimal conditions...
can you explain that...
There was nothing wrong with the conditions.pilgrimdan wrote:i really don't care that Stockfish loss in such a maner...zullil wrote:Only if Stockfish was "crippled" to such a degree as to no longer be a very strong opponent. Was that the case?pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
what i care about is why do it with non-optimal conditions...
can somebody explain that...
people are focussed on the wrong metric - it's not the settings, it's not the Sf version used, it's not the time control, -- just look at the games and the moves played by A0 - some of the move played appeared to come from another planet.., consider what they also did with AGo and it's impressive and its believable, it was clearly unexpected and apparently for many people , not believable - something most have been drastically wrong to the point where SF 8 was crippled - why use the word crippled , because the results were over overwhelmingly in favor AO such that SF had to be crippled... it was not done the way many of us would have to like seen it be done , but it is what it is ..I also understand why people feel the way ...it's called emotion. SF is open source , everybody gets it for free, hundreds of people have volunteered either time and money ( time, computers and electricity are not free) and it was and still is the strongest free open source engine available, SF brings a lot of positives to the chess community and people appreciate that it so much such that it has become the favorite son of many chess enthusiasts and rightfully so and then big bad google comes with big bad money, hires a bunch of really big bad smart people, spends a few million on big bad hardware and then blows away the white knight SF , and people get upset ...pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
I basically agree with what you are saying...MikeB wrote:people are focussed on the wrong metric - it's not the settings, it's not the Sf version used, it's not the time control, -- just look at the games and the moves played by A0 - some of the move played appeared to come from another planet.., consider what they also did with AGo and it's impressive and its believable, it was clearly unexpected and apparently for many people , not believable - something most have been drastically wrong to the point where SF 8 was crippled - why use the word crippled , because the results were over overwhelmingly in favor AO such that SF had to be crippled... it was not done the way many of us would have to like seen it be done , but it is what it is ..I also understand why people feel the way ...it's called emotion. SF is open source , everybody gets it for free, hundreds of people have volunteered either time and money ( time, computers and electricity are not free) and it was and still is the strongest free open source engine available, SF brings a lot of positives to the chess community and people appreciate that it so much such that it has become the favorite son of many chess enthusiasts and rightfully so and then big bad google comes with big bad money, hires a bunch of really big bad smart people, spends a few million on big bad hardware and then blows away the white knight SF , and people get upset ...pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
for me personally, I want to see some AO games played the way we would want them to see them play - but not because I think it would then be even and SF would have its revenge - but purely from standpoint that it would think it would be interesting and fun to watch...anyway I feel your pain too as the keeper of SF-McB - lets just hope there are some more games we can get to watch and analyze..
Milos wrote:Ofc that there is an obstacle. A0 has zero variability in search or evaluation. The only variability there comes on 8 threads waiting in the queue of each TPU for evaluation. Since A0 uses UTC and not alpha-beta this has minuscule impact on variability.Evert wrote:Reviewing the drawn games would be useful, and presumably there is no obstacle to theAlphaZero team making these available on-line.
All other randomness comes from SMP search of SF. Considering TC was fixed time per move, it is very probable that many games are actually similar if not even identical. That would be the only logical explanation why they didn't publish even all the winning games. Many wins basically repeat and there are many more almost identical boring draws.
If they published all the games ppl would see the scam.
I would think they'd release all the games when their paper gets published, that will be a while. What we've seen so far is just a preview of their paper.M ANSARI wrote:Milos wrote:Ofc that there is an obstacle. A0 has zero variability in search or evaluation. The only variability there comes on 8 threads waiting in the queue of each TPU for evaluation. Since A0 uses UTC and not alpha-beta this has minuscule impact on variability.Evert wrote:Reviewing the drawn games would be useful, and presumably there is no obstacle to theAlphaZero team making these available on-line.
All other randomness comes from SMP search of SF. Considering TC was fixed time per move, it is very probable that many games are actually similar if not even identical. That would be the only logical explanation why they didn't publish even all the winning games. Many wins basically repeat and there are many more almost identical boring draws.
If they published all the games ppl would see the scam.
Hmmm ... good point and a valid possibility. But let's wait and see. It is very strange why not all the 100 games were not released. I think we can gain more information regarding real strength with the drawn games. There doesn't seem to be a valid reason why the games have not all been released. I will say one thing though ... chess wise the moves played by A0 are really a huge achievement ... I really don't think any other chess engine today could have reproduced such moves no matter how many cores. But I would like to see all the games to get through all the hype.
There was nothing wrong with the SF it played against.pilgrimdan wrote:I basically agree with what you are saying...MikeB wrote:people are focussed on the wrong metric - it's not the settings, it's not the Sf version used, it's not the time control, -- just look at the games and the moves played by A0 - some of the move played appeared to come from another planet.., consider what they also did with AGo and it's impressive and its believable, it was clearly unexpected and apparently for many people , not believable - something most have been drastically wrong to the point where SF 8 was crippled - why use the word crippled , because the results were over overwhelmingly in favor AO such that SF had to be crippled... it was not done the way many of us would have to like seen it be done , but it is what it is ..I also understand why people feel the way ...it's called emotion. SF is open source , everybody gets it for free, hundreds of people have volunteered either time and money ( time, computers and electricity are not free) and it was and still is the strongest free open source engine available, SF brings a lot of positives to the chess community and people appreciate that it so much such that it has become the favorite son of many chess enthusiasts and rightfully so and then big bad google comes with big bad money, hires a bunch of really big bad smart people, spends a few million on big bad hardware and then blows away the white knight SF , and people get upset ...pilgrimdan wrote:and chess games against very strong <crippled> opponents...corres wrote:It should have to perceive that the match circumstances during games between A0 and Stockfish is an unimportant thing. The essence is the team of DeepMind have proved they can make a powerful system based on neural networks which can solve such complicated tasks like winning go and chess games against very strong opponents.
that statement is more accurate...
for me personally, I want to see some AO games played the way we would want them to see them play - but not because I think it would then be even and SF would have its revenge - but purely from standpoint that it would think it would be interesting and fun to watch...anyway I feel your pain too as the keeper of SF-McB - lets just hope there are some more games we can get to watch and analyze..
' ... just look at the games and the moves played by A0 - some of the move played appeared to come from another planet.. '
what I <still> don't understand...
if play looked like it came from another planet...
then why couldn't the 'play' be done against a fully functional Stockfish...
if it still would have produced play from another planet ... then fine ...
that would have been much more satisfying...
what am I missing...
