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so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?
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an even match GM vs Rybka
pawn and move
52%
 52%  [ 12 ]
two pawns
13%
 13%  [ 3 ]
two pawns and move
13%
 13%  [ 3 ]
knight
13%
 13%  [ 3 ]
knight and move
8%
 8%  [ 2 ]
Voted : 23
Total Votes : 23
This poll does not expire

Author Message
Tord Romstad



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1750
Location: Oslo, Norway
PostPost subject: Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka?    Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:56 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Harvey Williamson wrote:
NKOTB wrote:
In NFL football, games are made theoretically even by give one team points. Example, a bad team may be given a 21 point handicap to make the contest even.
.
with similar time controls to the current match, what handicap would the GM need so the match is considered even?


Maybe none of the above. Give the engine a time handicap and then we get a real game of Chess.

Hi Harvey,

This is one of the very few occasions when I strongly disagree with the contents of one of your posts: I think material handicap matches between humans and computers are vastly more interesting than time handicap matches.

We pretty much know that the strongest chess programs running on modern hardware are stronger than the best humans. The only thing we can hope to learn from time handicap matches between GMs and computers is how much a reduction in thinking time hurts the strength of a computer program. We already know the approximate answer to this question for games between two computers: A doubling in CPU speed gives somewhere around 60 Elo points. Maybe the constant is somewhat different for human vs computer games, but who cares?

Material handicap matches are much more interesting, because we can hope to learn something new about chess from them. How much is one pawn, two pawns or a knight worth in terms of Elo ratings? How big a material advantage would a top GM need in order to win against a perfect player? Nobody knows the answers to such questions, but experiments like the Rybka-Ehlvest match at least allow us to begin to speculate. That anyone can consider such a match to be less interesting than a time handicap match boggles my mind.

Tord
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Subject Author Date/Time
so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:01 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Harvey Williamson Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:13 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mark Schreiber Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:21 pm
                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:26 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Harvey Williamson Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:31 pm
                              Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:36 pm
                                    Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? JonP01 Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:55 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mark Schreiber Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:48 pm
                              Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:38 pm
                                    Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mark Schreiber Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:11 pm
                                          Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:15 pm
                                                Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mark Schreiber Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:07 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Harvey Williamson Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:54 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Albert Silver Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:57 pm
                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:09 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:11 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Tord Romstad Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:56 pm
                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Harvey Williamson Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:55 pm
                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mark Schreiber Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:23 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Dom Leste Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:53 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mike Scheidl Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:04 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:53 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Alkelele Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:06 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mike Scheidl Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:23 pm
                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:42 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mike Scheidl Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:21 pm
                              Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:42 pm
                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:55 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:59 pm
                              Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:02 pm
                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mike Scheidl Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:02 pm
                              Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:04 pm
                                    Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mike Scheidl Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:15 pm
                                          Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? cooldalek Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:17 pm
                                          Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:23 pm
                                                Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Mike Scheidl Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:34 pm
                                                      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:16 pm
                                                      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:56 pm
                                                            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:03 pm
                                                                  Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:21 pm
                                                                        Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:25 pm
                                                                              Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:54 am
                                                                                    Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Graham Banks Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:06 am
                                                                                          Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? JonP01 Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:40 am
                                                                                          Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? ologist Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Joseph Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:46 pm
                                                                                    Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:04 am
                                                                                    Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Uri Blass Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:22 am
                                                Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? cooldalek Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:57 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Steve B Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:10 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Cobweb Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:18 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Graham Banks Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:50 pm
      Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? George Speight Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:10 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? NKOTB Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:00 pm
            Re: so what is a fair GM handicap vs Rybka? Dave McClain Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:21 pm
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