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Robert Hyatt
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 15816 Location: Birmingham, AL
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Post subject: time for some real data Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:02 pm |
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Here are 32 80-game matches, with +=a win, -=a loss and = means drawn. The 80 game matches are between the two same opponents, same 40 starting opening positions one with white one with black, same time control, same everything. Look at this and then tell me that two programs play the same games often if nothing is changed...
What is interesting is to look at each column (not so easy as formatted by HTML). Each column represents the same starting position and color. You might expect for each column to have the same character/result since the two programs, the time control, the starting position and starting color are identical within a column. But expectations and actual results don't match up. Some columns are pretty deterministic, although finding any column with identical results from top to bottom is rare. Then compare any two rows to see how often a match produces the same or very close to the same results game by game.
Variance is for real, and it is a huge problem.
| Code: |
01: -+-=-++=-+=++-=-+-+=+-+--=-+=--++=-++--=-+=-===+-+===+=++-=++--+-+--+--+=--++---
02: -+=+=++-=+--+-=-+-+==-+----+=-=++--+=--+--+---==-+-==+=+---++--+--+-=--+-=--+---
03: -+--=++==+-++-+-+-+-+-==-+-++--+=---+--+-++--+-+===+=+-=+-==+==+---=---++--++=+-
04: -+=-=+=--=-++-+-+-+=+-+--+-+-==++=-+==-+--+=-+-+-+=+=--+---==--+-++----++-=++---
05: -+=--+=--+=-+-+---=-+-+----++=-++=-+--=+=-+--+-+-+=+=+-+===++--+-+-==--+----+-+-
06: -+---=+=-+-+====+-+-+-+-=+-+==-=+--++--==++-=+---+=+=+-+--=++--+=-+-=--+=-----=-
07: -+-+--+--+=-+==-=-+-+-+--+=-=-=++-=++=-+-=+--+-+-+=+-+-++-=++-=+--=-=--++---+=+-
08: -+-+-=+--+-==-=-+=+=+=+--+-==-=+=--++----++--+=--+=--+-=+-----=+-++==--++=--+--=
09: -+-+-=+--+-+==--+-+-+-+--==----++==++=-+=++--+=+-=-=-+-+=--++-=+--=-+=---=-+--+-
10: -+=+-++--+-++-==+-+-+-==-+-+=-=++-=++-=+==+--+-=-+-==+==+--++--+=++==--+----+-+=
11: -+---====+-++=--==+---+--+-+----+--+=-=+-=+--+=+-+-+-+-==--=+--+=++-+--++=-++-==
12: -+=+=++--+-++-+-=-+-+-+=-+-+-=--+--+=--+=-+==+-=-+=--+-=+-==+-=+-++-=--++---+---
13: -+-+--+==+--==+-+-+-=-+=-+-+=--+-=-++-=--++--+===--+=+=+---++-=+-=+-----+---+---
14: -+-=-++--+-+==+-=-+=+-+=-+=+=--++=-++--+==+--==-===+-+=-+-=-+-=+--+-=-=++--+=-+-
15: -+-+-++--+-=+==-+-+-+-+--+-+=---+--++-=+-++---=+-+==-+-+---==-=+--=-+--+=--++-+=
16: -+=+=++=-+=++=+=--+-+=+--+=+=---+--++--+=-+==+==-+-+=+-++---+-=+-=+-==-++===+-+-
17: -=-+-=+--+-++==-+-+-+-+--+==+-=++--++--+==+-=+-==+=--+-++--++-=+--+----++---+-+-
18: -+==-++--+=====-+=+-+-+--+-++--++=-+=--+-++--+=+-+=+-+=++=-++-=+==+==--+--=++---
19: =+-+=+-=-=-=+-+---+-+-+--+-++--++=-++-==-++-=+-+++=-=+-++--=+--+-++-==-++--++-=-
20: -+---++-=+=-+-+=+-=-+-+--+-+=--++=-+=-=+-++--+=+=+--=+-++--++--+-=+-+--++--++-+-
21: -+=-=++--+=+=-+=+-+-+-+----=--=++=-=---+-++---=+-+=+-+=+--=-+--+--+=+--=+---=---
22: -+-=-=+-==--+=+-=-+-+=+----+=-=++-=++====++--+---+===+=++--++--+--+---=++---+-=-
23: -+-=-++=-+-+=---=-=-+--=-+=+-===-=-+=--==++--+=+=+=+=+=++--++-=+--+-----+-----+-
24: -+-+-+-=-+-++-+-+---+-+--+-=----+--++--+-=+--=-====+==-++--++-=--=+--=-++--++---
25: =+---+==-+-+==+-=-+-+-+=++-+=--++--=+--+==+--+==-+-===-++--++=-+-==--==++=--+-+-
26: -+=+-++--+-=+=+=+-=-+=+--+-+-=-=+-=++--=-++--+-+-+=-=+-++---+-=+-=+-=--=+=-++==-
27: -+-+-++--=-+====+-=-+-==-+=-+---+--+=--=-=+===-+-=-+-+-++--=+--+-++-=--++=-++-+=
28: =+---+---+-++-+-+-+-+----=-+===++--++-=+==+--+---+-+-+-+=-==+-=+--+==-=+=---+-+-
29: =+-+-++-===+--+=+-+-+-=--+=+---++--+=-==-++-=+---+=+=+--+-=++--+-++==--++-=++--=
30: -+=+-++-=+-=+-+=+-=-+-+--+-+---++--++-=+=++-==-+=--+=+=++--++----+=-+--+---++--=
31: -+=+==+--+-++=+-+-+=+-+=-+-++=-++--+=--+=-+--+-+=--+=+-+--=++--+--+-=--++=--+---
32: -+-=--+-=+-+-=-=+-+-+-+--+-+=--++=-+=-=+-++=-==--+-+=--++--++--+-++-+-=++=-++-+-
32 distinct runs (2560 games) found
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Date/Time |
Observator bias or... |
Alessandro Scotti |
Tue May 29, 2007 6:25 pm |
Re: Observator bias or... |
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Wed May 30, 2007 9:43 am |
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Wed May 30, 2007 3:02 pm |
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Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:31 am |
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Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:42 am |
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Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:18 am |
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H.G.Muller |
Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:20 pm |
Re: Observator bias or... |
Robert Hyatt |
Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:31 am |
time for some real data |
Robert Hyatt |
Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:02 pm |
Re: time for some real data |
H.G.Muller |
Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:51 pm |
Re: time for some real data |
Robert Hyatt |
Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:43 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
H.G.Muller |
Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:40 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
Robert Hyatt |
Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:24 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
Charles Roberson |
Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:44 am |
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Uri Blass |
Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:46 am |
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Ron Murawski |
Wed May 30, 2007 8:26 pm |
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Wed May 30, 2007 8:31 pm |
Re: Observator bias or... |
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Wed May 30, 2007 11:50 pm |
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Thu May 31, 2007 12:19 am |
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Dann Corbit |
Thu May 31, 2007 12:33 am |
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Thu May 31, 2007 12:40 am |
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Thu May 31, 2007 9:40 am |
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Thu May 31, 2007 11:02 am |
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Thu May 31, 2007 12:04 pm |
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Thu May 31, 2007 12:51 pm |
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Thu May 31, 2007 12:55 pm |
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Thu May 31, 2007 12:56 pm |
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Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:37 am |
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Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:15 pm |
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Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:29 am |
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Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:11 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
Eelco de Groot |
Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:07 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
Uri Blass |
Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:39 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
H.G.Muller |
Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:47 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
Alessandro Scotti |
Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:36 am |
Re: Observator bias or... |
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Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:50 pm |
Re: Observator bias or... |
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Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:07 am |
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