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Observator bias or...
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Robert Hyatt



Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 15816
Location: Birmingham, AL

PostPost subject: time for some real data    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:02 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote

Here are 32 80-game matches, with +=a win, -=a loss and = means drawn. The 80 game matches are between the two same opponents, same 40 starting opening positions one with white one with black, same time control, same everything. Look at this and then tell me that two programs play the same games often if nothing is changed...

What is interesting is to look at each column (not so easy as formatted by HTML). Each column represents the same starting position and color. You might expect for each column to have the same character/result since the two programs, the time control, the starting position and starting color are identical within a column. But expectations and actual results don't match up. Some columns are pretty deterministic, although finding any column with identical results from top to bottom is rare. Then compare any two rows to see how often a match produces the same or very close to the same results game by game.

Variance is for real, and it is a huge problem.


Code:

01:  -+-=-++=-+=++-=-+-+=+-+--=-+=--++=-++--=-+=-===+-+===+=++-=++--+-+--+--+=--++---
02:  -+=+=++-=+--+-=-+-+==-+----+=-=++--+=--+--+---==-+-==+=+---++--+--+-=--+-=--+---
03:  -+--=++==+-++-+-+-+-+-==-+-++--+=---+--+-++--+-+===+=+-=+-==+==+---=---++--++=+-
04:  -+=-=+=--=-++-+-+-+=+-+--+-+-==++=-+==-+--+=-+-+-+=+=--+---==--+-++----++-=++---
05:  -+=--+=--+=-+-+---=-+-+----++=-++=-+--=+=-+--+-+-+=+=+-+===++--+-+-==--+----+-+-
06:  -+---=+=-+-+====+-+-+-+-=+-+==-=+--++--==++-=+---+=+=+-+--=++--+=-+-=--+=-----=-
07:  -+-+--+--+=-+==-=-+-+-+--+=-=-=++-=++=-+-=+--+-+-+=+-+-++-=++-=+--=-=--++---+=+-
08:  -+-+-=+--+-==-=-+=+=+=+--+-==-=+=--++----++--+=--+=--+-=+-----=+-++==--++=--+--=
09:  -+-+-=+--+-+==--+-+-+-+--==----++==++=-+=++--+=+-=-=-+-+=--++-=+--=-+=---=-+--+-
10:  -+=+-++--+-++-==+-+-+-==-+-+=-=++-=++-=+==+--+-=-+-==+==+--++--+=++==--+----+-+=
11:  -+---====+-++=--==+---+--+-+----+--+=-=+-=+--+=+-+-+-+-==--=+--+=++-+--++=-++-==
12:  -+=+=++--+-++-+-=-+-+-+=-+-+-=--+--+=--+=-+==+-=-+=--+-=+-==+-=+-++-=--++---+---
13:  -+-+--+==+--==+-+-+-=-+=-+-+=--+-=-++-=--++--+===--+=+=+---++-=+-=+-----+---+---
14:  -+-=-++--+-+==+-=-+=+-+=-+=+=--++=-++--+==+--==-===+-+=-+-=-+-=+--+-=-=++--+=-+-
15:  -+-+-++--+-=+==-+-+-+-+--+-+=---+--++-=+-++---=+-+==-+-+---==-=+--=-+--+=--++-+=
16:  -+=+=++=-+=++=+=--+-+=+--+=+=---+--++--+=-+==+==-+-+=+-++---+-=+-=+-==-++===+-+-
17:  -=-+-=+--+-++==-+-+-+-+--+==+-=++--++--+==+-=+-==+=--+-++--++-=+--+----++---+-+-
18:  -+==-++--+=====-+=+-+-+--+-++--++=-+=--+-++--+=+-+=+-+=++=-++-=+==+==--+--=++---
19:  =+-+=+-=-=-=+-+---+-+-+--+-++--++=-++-==-++-=+-+++=-=+-++--=+--+-++-==-++--++-=-
20:  -+---++-=+=-+-+=+-=-+-+--+-+=--++=-+=-=+-++--+=+=+--=+-++--++--+-=+-+--++--++-+-
21:  -+=-=++--+=+=-+=+-+-+-+----=--=++=-=---+-++---=+-+=+-+=+--=-+--+--+=+--=+---=---
22:  -+-=-=+-==--+=+-=-+-+=+----+=-=++-=++====++--+---+===+=++--++--+--+---=++---+-=-
23:  -+-=-++=-+-+=---=-=-+--=-+=+-===-=-+=--==++--+=+=+=+=+=++--++-=+--+-----+-----+-
24:  -+-+-+-=-+-++-+-+---+-+--+-=----+--++--+-=+--=-====+==-++--++-=--=+--=-++--++---
25:  =+---+==-+-+==+-=-+-+-+=++-+=--++--=+--+==+--+==-+-===-++--++=-+-==--==++=--+-+-
26:  -+=+-++--+-=+=+=+-=-+=+--+-+-=-=+-=++--=-++--+-+-+=-=+-++---+-=+-=+-=--=+=-++==-
27:  -+-+-++--=-+====+-=-+-==-+=-+---+--+=--=-=+===-+-=-+-+-++--=+--+-++-=--++=-++-+=
28:  =+---+---+-++-+-+-+-+----=-+===++--++-=+==+--+---+-+-+-+=-==+-=+--+==-=+=---+-+-
29:  =+-+-++-===+--+=+-+-+-=--+=+---++--+=-==-++-=+---+=+=+--+-=++--+-++==--++-=++--=
30:  -+=+-++-=+-=+-+=+-=-+-+--+-+---++--++-=+=++-==-+=--+=+=++--++----+=-+--+---++--=
31:  -+=+==+--+-++=+-+-+=+-+=-+-++=-++--+=--+=-+--+-+=--+=+-+--=++--+--+-=--++=--+---
32:  -+-=--+-=+-+-=-=+-+-+-+--+-+=--++=-+=-=+-++=-==--+-+=--++--++--+-++-+-=++=-++-+-
32 distinct runs (2560 games) found
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Subject Author Date/Time
Observator bias or... Alessandro Scotti Tue May 29, 2007 6:25 pm
      Re: Observator bias or... Dann Corbit Tue May 29, 2007 6:33 pm
      Re: Observator bias or... ed Tue May 29, 2007 6:59 pm
            Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Wed May 30, 2007 9:43 am
                  Re: Observator bias or... ed Wed May 30, 2007 3:02 pm
                        Re: Observator bias or... cwb Wed May 30, 2007 4:48 pm
                        Re: Observator bias or... Peter Fendrich Wed May 30, 2007 6:36 pm
                        Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:30 pm
      Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Wed May 30, 2007 10:17 am
            Re: Observator bias or... Alessandro Scotti Wed May 30, 2007 12:35 pm
                  Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:41 am
                        Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:18 am
                              Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:54 am
                                    Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:44 am
                                          Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:34 pm
                                                Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:52 am
                                                      Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:58 pm
                                                            Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:24 pm
                                                                  Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:31 am
                                                                        Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:42 am
                                                                              Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:18 am
                                                                        Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:20 pm
                                                                              Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:31 am
                                                                                    time for some real data Robert Hyatt Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: time for some real data H.G.Muller Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:51 pm
                                                                                          Re: time for some real data Robert Hyatt Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:43 am
                                    Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:40 am
                                          Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:24 am
                              Re: Observator bias or... Charles Roberson Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:44 am
                                    Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:46 am
      Re: Observator bias or... Ron Murawski Wed May 30, 2007 8:26 pm
            Re: Observator bias or... Alessandro Scotti Wed May 30, 2007 8:31 pm
                  Re: Observator bias or... ed Wed May 30, 2007 11:50 pm
                        Re: Observator bias or... Dann Corbit Thu May 31, 2007 12:19 am
                              Re: Observator bias or... Dann Corbit Thu May 31, 2007 12:33 am
                                    Re: Observator bias or... Dann Corbit Thu May 31, 2007 12:40 am
                                          Re: Observator bias or... ed Thu May 31, 2007 9:40 am
                  Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Thu May 31, 2007 11:02 am
                        Re: Observator bias or... Tony Thu May 31, 2007 12:04 pm
                              Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Thu May 31, 2007 12:51 pm
                                    Re: Observator bias or... Tony Thu May 31, 2007 12:55 pm
                        Re: Observator bias or... Alessandro Scotti Thu May 31, 2007 12:56 pm
                        Re: Observator bias or... Robert Hyatt Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:37 am
                        Re: Observator bias or... Eelco de Groot Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:15 pm
      Re: Observator bias or... Michael Sherwin Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:29 am
            Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:11 am
                  Re: Observator bias or... Eelco de Groot Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:07 am
                        Re: Observator bias or... Uri Blass Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:39 am
                        Re: Observator bias or... H.G.Muller Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:47 am
            Re: Observator bias or... Alessandro Scotti Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:36 am
                  Re: Observator bias or... Ron Murawski Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:50 pm
      Re: Observator bias or... MartinBryant Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:07 am
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