Vas taken to the Popular Court, again?

[Rolf]

You permit a little joke? Well, with all the changes, still basically, I'm standing on the grave of Abel accusing Cain of murder or at least slaughter and I want to defend a genius like Vas today. Alhough part of me is also directed from a lizard's brain.

Note, we dont talk about stupid people and shouldnt split hairs. Vas has created his own thing and all what he had to say was in the notes. Well, more or less.

Now others could do the same, but they shouldnt take Rybka because that is not given away like Fruit. That's the difference. Alas, we dont have many creative programmers. Although from my perspective all of the many hundreds of amateurs are already on top of my talents and I admire all. Except those who have now entered politics or justice. Or character assassination. I'm not aiming at you of course.

I still dont get an answer to the question

If someone took Fruit and just found some better parameters that make it better is it not still not Fruit ?

And as a sidenote the sentence

Now others could do the same, but they shouldnt take Rybka because that is not given away like Fruit.

For me shows you dont get that Fruit wasnt "given away" it was made public with some CONDITIONS - very big difference

The answer wont please you but this is as it is. We have a climate here that forbids people for having dissenting opinions. And I am in special hated because I have the guts to publish my opinions in all naivety as coming from an academic, who doesnt program but who knows enough about social group defamation tricks as a psychologist.

The wrong in your copped question is that is so closed type of question. I can only reply with yes or no and for both answers you think you know the absolute true consequence. This is often to see in Law people. Psychologically I see much more solutions, issues.

Look, I am not Vasik. I've never talked to him. I never communicated with him. How could I when he doesnt speak too much in public. But I can say this. From his chess talents and from his educational experience at the best university in the whole USA and not to forget with a father who is also a university professor himself, Vasik seems to be such an outstanding and still polite and enjoyable type of guy who always shows respect to other people, that I cannot imagine why and how this guy should have betrayed all of himself by doing anything morally wrong in that question you present here. More I see a really smart guy who is able, what Bob seems to lack deeply, he foresees a future and is therefore capable of making the best placement for his ideas. And the whole presentation of his creation at the beginning, was a deeply thought through mission. I already wrote this at the time. In this field I have never seen anyhing comparable. How he interested the community. Then answered smallest questions from all sides and then the present. But most of all he remained always friendly. He didnt insult his critics for having taken false pills. Never even once. And I'm only talking about my experiences as an observer.

I can only answer your closed question this way: it's the wrong question. It doesnt import if it was Fruit or not. What Vas created was the beginning of something new and that is what counts.

I can only advise all of you here that if you should have a bright idea then take a frame, so that you dont have to re-invent every tech detail, that is already there among the free stuff and add your invention and test it. At first it's a game. But if it looks as if it's good enough, give it a try and present it to the community also in these sort of areas. Try to to lose your fears and step forward. You have nothing to fear. Although - well, but some will defend you. Like me.

[kiroje]

The answer wont please you but this is as it is. We have a climate here that forbids people for having dissenting opinions. And I am in special hated because I have the guts to publish my opinions in all naivety as coming from an academic, who doesnt program but who knows enough about social group defamation tricks as a psychologist.

Well I dont hate you But I just dont quite understand your position on the subject.

The wrong in your copped question is that is so closed type of question. I can only reply with yes or no and for both answers you think you know the absolute true consequence. This is often to see in Law people. Psychologically I see much more solutions, issues.

I dont quite get this, I only wanted to know if you respect the GPL that Fruit uses.

I cannot understand what you mean with

Psychologically I see much more solutions, issues.

What kind of other solutions is there if you take a program that is released under GPL and doesnt abide to the GPL ?

You cant hear some music, then make something similar and then claim it to be yours(see the recent Gary Moore verdict from german court where he was convicted for plagiarizing a german bands solo with his old "Still got the blues" hit, his number was ten fold more popular but that didnt make it right)

Look, I am not Vasik. I've never talked to him. I never communicated with him. How could I when he doesnt speak too much in public. But I can say this. From his chess talents and from his educational experience at the best university in the whole USA and not to forget with a father who is also a university professor himself, Vasik seems to be such an outstanding and still polite and enjoyable type of guy who always shows respect to other people, that I cannot imagine why and how this guy should have betrayed all of himself by doing anything morally wrong in that question you present here.

Yes Vas is probably a great guy, but i cant know because i never met him.
But ill give him the benefit of the doubt

More I see a really smart guy who is able, what Bob seems to lack deeply, he foresees a future and is therefore capable of making the best placement for his ideas.

I dont get that, what is it that he is able to do that Robert Hyatt isnt ?

In my book Hyatt have done a great amount of work by making his program/ideas/test results public .. But that doesnt mean that I have less respect for anyone else.

And the whole presentation of his creation at the beginning, was a deeply thought through mission. I already wrote this at the time. In this field I have never seen anyhing comparable. How he interested the community. Then answered smallest questions from all sides and then the present. But most of all he remained always friendly. He didnt insult his critics for having taken false pills. Never even once. And I'm only talking about my experiences as an observer.

Maybe I havent read through all the post on the Rybka board and here, but where have Vas answered the smallest questions etc. ? AFAIK Vas hasnt made anything substantial public about his program than some generic code.

I can only answer your closed question this way: it's the wrong question. It doesnt import if it was Fruit or not. What Vas created was the beginning of something new and that is what counts.

This is where we differ in opinion, if i take a program and screws any legal agreement and just produces a better program does that justify it ?

I dont think so...

I can only advise all of you here that if you should have a bright idea then take a frame, so that you dont have to re-invent every tech detail, that is already there among the free stuff and add your invention and test it.

But it wasnt "free"

At first it's a game. But if it looks as if it's good enough, give it a try and present it to the community also in these sort of areas. Try to to lose your fears and step forward. You have nothing to fear. Although - well, but some will defend you. Like me.

Again something I dont quite understand, but its also a little late here

[Rolf]

It would be a pleasure to have a longer conversation with you. Much of what you see as difference isnt a real one IMO. But I also hate to type it with me having difficulties to type at all. Makes no sense.

The case of Gary Moore is interesting me actually and I also have heard the original already. Note that this wasnt on a LP at the time nor CD. It was back in 74. It was perhaps recorded during live. So, in this case I wouldnt convict Moore. He was traveling in Germany then and he probably was in a concert. Therefore the question arose if a musician could have stored such thing in his head for so long. An expert thought that this could be possible. For me it's a typical Moore solo guitar. But my space in memory for music melodies is very tiny. Perhaps zero. Also other pieces of this German band sound like Moore if the guitar plays a solo.

Again. Please just accept that I think a logical decision isnt required here in case of a present sent by email. No matter how much was in it from Fruit. But I trust that only tech stuff without interest for strength was in it. I dont know for sure. I didnt have the version because when I realised the offer it was too late for the email.

It's not correct to quote me as if having said that alone the strength above all is decisive and therefore etc. in a legal sense. No, I think this aspect should demonstrate that Vas did something new. Not only some tweaks here or there.

Let me offer a new revolutionary idea for computerchess programming:

IMO the testers and ranking freaks have a much too big influence here. As if everything were about strength and points. Here I agree with Corbitt. Since only a few have real understanding of what it means for having new ideas in the programming of chess we must live with only a handful or two advisors or coaches who could be of help for all levels of CC programming. IMO a guy with a weak program could have the similar potential like Vasik. Also Vasik was down there with a weaker prog (See Günther's files). What we should have more here is a permanent support for all the 400 programmers who are active. And not the whole ranking list nonsense mainly computed by lays. Rankings cant give you ideas for better programming IMO. They can certainly take away your motivation to continue.

[bob]

This has nothing to do with audacity, impoliteness, bad sportsmanship or whatever else, but with the fact that the GNU GPL requires that derivative works (works which either include the source or contain modified versions of it) also be released as Open Source under the GNU GPL license.

If Rybka's source is derived from Fruit's, then it was improperly released as a closed-source non-GPL project. It's quite simple. Rybka's achievement (and Vas's considerable skill) are actually totally beside the point.

I have seen no information one way or the other, and I probably won't stop using Rybka, whatever the results of the 'investigation'. But it's not unreasonable, rude or wrong to want to know the facts.

Jeremy

Nonsense! Notghing has been released. Under judicial terms.

The minute you sell, give away, or whatever, you "release" that product to the public. You waste more time writing complete nonsense than any person I know of here. And you like to drag threads out to infinity, writing about things you have absolutely no understanding of...

It was a present for a community that was so happy to finally have a wonderful new chess prodigy as a free engine. That wasnt sold or anything.

The necessary has been declarated and that's it.

We are no beancounters. This is a genial performance and nobody has the right to smear this with formal or secondary suppositions.

What strikes me is the naivety of the claim it's a copy, talking about R1, but it was already stronger than ALL others. I mean, this is basic math or basic logic, you just count two and two together and you see that it cant be a copy. Right? Other questions?

R1 is nowhere near the strongest program today, even excluding R2 and R3. Although this has absolutely no legal bearing on whether or not a GPL violation has occurred so it is moot anyway.

Also the present was privately distributed to emailing interested! Your serve now.

You first have to offer up your own "serve". The above is a big "zero".

[Rolf]

R1 WAS stronger than everything else at the time it was created, also stronger as Crafty. Today when everybody has taken from Fruit, R1 is no longer the best. But R3 is stronger by miles and light years than all the rest, depending on the testers. For all stronger in its ideas. That is basically why you are concerned. I ask you the same like others, begin to rip Fritz or Shredder or Tiger and accept that Rybka is beyond all that in strength.

To the many young members here I explain, someone with a basic education in science and for example methodology, he can therefore understand the basics in all other sciences, also computer sciences. One isnt an expert but also not a complete lay.

Therefore it's very unpleasent if here a true expert like Bob is continuously insulting me in a general sense where we discuss how a private software could be handled. That isnt genuinely a computerchess topic. And therefore Bob has no more insight than I have to judge if something is private and the author can give it in private just for fun, to show how strong the thing is.

People can think what they want but such a private activity is nothing someone like Bob is the police for to supervise it nor Christophe Theron. Therefore I opposed their smear campaign right from the start.

[Terry McCracken]

This has nothing to do with audacity, impoliteness, bad sportsmanship or whatever else, but with the fact that the GNU GPL requires that derivative works (works which either include the source or contain modified versions of it) also be released as Open Source under the GNU GPL license.

If Rybka's source is derived from Fruit's, then it was improperly released as a closed-source non-GPL project. It's quite simple. Rybka's achievement (and Vas's considerable skill) are actually totally beside the point.

I have seen no information one way or the other, and I probably won't stop using Rybka, whatever the results of the 'investigation'. But it's not unreasonable, rude or wrong to want to know the facts.

Jeremy

Nonsense! Notghing has been released. Under judicial terms.

The minute you sell, give away, or whatever, you "release" that product to the public. You waste more time writing complete nonsense than any person I know of here. And you like to drag threads out to infinity, writing about things you have absolutely no understanding of...

It was a present for a community that was so happy to finally have a wonderful new chess prodigy as a free engine. That wasnt sold or anything.

The necessary has been declarated and that's it.

We are no beancounters. This is a genial performance and nobody has the right to smear this with formal or secondary suppositions.

What strikes me is the naivety of the claim it's a copy, talking about R1, but it was already stronger than ALL others. I mean, this is basic math or basic logic, you just count two and two together and you see that it cant be a copy. Right? Other questions?

R1 is nowhere near the strongest program today, even excluding R2 and R3. Although this has absolutely no legal bearing on whether or not a GPL violation has occurred so it is moot anyway.

Also the present was privately distributed to emailing interested! Your serve now.

You first have to offer up your own "serve". The above is a big "zero".

Hi Bob. I essentially said what you said and my post was pulled!

I said Rolf's knowledge in chess programming was zero and to give it up.

[Terry McCracken]

R1 WAS stronger than everything else at the time it was created, also stronger as Crafty. Today when everybody has taken from Fruit, R1 is no longer the best. But R3 is stronger by miles and light years than all the rest, depending on the testers. For all stronger in its ideas. That is basically why you are concerned. I ask you the same like others, begin to rip Fritz or Shredder or Tiger and accept that Rybka is beyond all that in strength.

To the many young members here I explain, someone with a basic education in science and for example methodology, he can therefore understand the basics in all other sciences, also computer sciences. One isnt an expert but also not a complete lay.

Therefore it's very unpleasent if here a true expert like Bob is continuously insulting me in a general sense where we discuss how a private software could be handled. That isnt genuinely a computerchess topic. And therefore Bob has no more insight than I have to judge if something is private and the author can give it in private just for fun, to show how strong the thing is.

People can think what they want but such a private activity is nothing someone like Bob is the police for to supervise it nor Christophe Theron. Therefore I opposed their smear campaign right from the start.

If you don't drop it, Bob or Christophe if they wanted to act could sue you for libel. However, Vas couldn't sue Bob or Christophe....You know what I mean?

Unless you're a complete lay of course

[bob]

R1 WAS stronger than everything else at the time it was created, also stronger as Crafty. Today when everybody has taken from Fruit, R1 is no longer the best. But R3 is stronger by miles and light years than all the rest, depending on the testers. For all stronger in its ideas. That is basically why you are concerned. I ask you the same like others, begin to rip Fritz or Shredder or Tiger and accept that Rybka is beyond all that in strength.

To the many young members here I explain, someone with a basic education in science and for example methodology, he can therefore understand the basics in all other sciences, also computer sciences. One isnt an expert but also not a complete lay.

Therefore it's very unpleasent if here a true expert like Bob is continuously insulting me in a general sense where we discuss how a private software could be handled. That isnt genuinely a computerchess topic. And therefore Bob has no more insight than I have to judge if something is private and the author can give it in private just for fun, to show how strong the thing is.

People can think what they want but such a private activity is nothing someone like Bob is the police for to supervise it nor Christophe Theron. Therefore I opposed their smear campaign right from the start.

Rolf, have you _ever_ sat thru long meetings with attorneys that specialize in copyright and patent issues? I have had to. So I do understand the concept of copyright as it applies to programs, and the GPL, as it applies to programs. You obviously do not. There is absolutely no clause in a GPL program that says you can copy it, sell the result, give the result away for free, give it away "in private" or anything else, without releasing the new source code. Absolutely no escape for that. Regardless of your continual rantings, claims to be an expert, and such notwithstanding. You are wrong. You have been wrong from the get-go. And it would seem you are going to be wrong until the day you finally return to room temperature.

There are no exceptions to code derived from GPL'ed code. _NO_ _EXCEPTIONS_. And that is a legal opinion, rendered by an expert in this field. So take your experience, and other ramblings, and go somewhere else to post this drivel. Several of us will continue to expose every such claim as utter drivel from someone that doesn't have a single clue about what they are talking about...

[bob]

Rolf has his own standards here. It is ok to call me various insulting names, but when someone returns the favor, he can't wait to go whine to the moderators. I've not made a complaint to the moderators since the 10 of us first started CCC. But the whiner does. I only wish the moderators would learn to ignore him and his complaints and quit interfering in the various threads that pop up. And if they would do the rational thing and simply ban him from posting here, things would be 100x more enjoyable.

in fact, I think I might actually run for moderator next time, on the platform that if elected, my first action will be to ban him from CCC for the duration of my term as moderator. Let him spew his uninformed garbage in the CTF cesspool. But just not in CCC. We came here from r.g.c.c to get away from him, and I wal willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while. But IMHO, that time is past...

I'll even run on the platform that I will ban Rolf if I get 50% of the total votes or more, otherwise I won't even serve, to see if the majority of members agree with me. It's like arguing with a 3-year-old that speaks a different language than us, so communication is impossible, complex concepts are not understood, and we get mostly noise as a result. Lots of noise. Way too much noise...

[Graham Banks]

Rolf has his own standards here. It is ok to call me various insulting names, but when someone returns the favor, he can't wait to go whine to the moderators. I've not made a complaint to the moderators since the 10 of us first started CCC. But the whiner does. I only wish the moderators would learn to ignore him and his complaints and quit interfering in the various threads that pop up. And if they would do the rational thing and simply ban him from posting here, things would be 100x more enjoyable.

in fact, I think I might actually run for moderator next time, on the platform that if elected, my first action will be to ban him from CCC for the duration of my term as moderator. Let him spew his uninformed garbage in the CTF cesspool. But just not in CCC. We came here from r.g.c.c to get away from him, and I wal willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while. But IMHO, that time is past...

I'll even run on the platform that I will ban Rolf if I get 50% of the total votes or more, otherwise I won't even serve, to see if the majority of members agree with me. It's like arguing with a 3-year-old that speaks a different language than us, so communication is impossible, complex concepts are not understood, and we get mostly noise as a result. Lots of noise. Way too much noise...

The moderators shouldn't have to wait for a complaint to act upon charter violations. It's their job to uphold the charter, not act purely upon complaints.