Is this simple position a win?

[premio53]

[d]8/8/6k1/2p1p3/2P1P1K1/3N4/8/b7 w - - 0 1

1 Nxc5? This move throws away the win! "White's c-pawn cannot be advanced to the queening square without the help of the king, but this allows Black to counter by attacking the e-pawn" - Pachman.

I found this position on page 385 of "The Mammoth Book of Chess" where Graham Burgess was pointing out the weaknesses of modern chess engines in actually understanding a position. He doesn't give the continuation but simply points out the winning strategy is blown by not being able to make an anti-materialistic decision. He quoted GM Pachman.

Was GM Pachman wrong? I have yet to find a chess engine that refuses to reject the pawn.

[premio53]

[d]8/8/6k1/2p1p3/2P1P1K1/3N4/8/b7 w - - 0 1
This position is being discussed at another site and the conclusion is starting to be that once again the Grandmaster is wrong and the computer is right. No one can figure out a winning line.

[Cubeman]

Quite interesting looking at old books and seeing what was considered best and the poor performance of the top chess engines at the time.Consider the following originally from John Nunn's "Tactical Chess Endings" 1981 and again mentioned in "The Big Book of Combinations" by Eric Schiller.Makarov-Umansky 1958
[D] 8/1r6/1n2B2P/4kP2/1R2p3/5p2/5K2/8 b - - 0 1
The correct move is 1..Rc7 according to the GM and he gives the long lines showing that 2.Rxb6 Kf4 will eventually lead to a draw.And in the BBofC the author notes that the computers at the time stuck to the grovel plan of 1..Rh7?! 2.Rxb6 Rxh6 which was thought to be probably losing.But after 1..Rc7 the new comps come up with the plan of 2.Kg3! to prevent 2..Kf4 and now the N on b6 is still lost so the best move is actually 1..Rh7!?.I have played around with the position and can't find a win for White with 1..Rh7 2.Rxb6 Rxh6 and this plan seems better than 1..Rc7 2.Kg3 Rh7 though both are still hard to win.
Also later on in the book the program Zarkov is failed on many positions that are in fact genuine correct alternatives.

[premio53]

[d]8/8/6k1/2p1p3/2P1P1K1/3N4/8/b7 w - - 0 1
I found this winning solution on another site.

White to play took the pawn, <1.Nxc5? Kf6>, after which White had no forced win and the game was ultimately drawn. But had Pachman postponed the pleasure of capture for some 14 moves, he would have had a stock win: 1.Ne1 Bc3 2.Nf3 Bd4 3.Nh4+ Kf6 4.Kh5 Bf2 5.Nf5 Bg1 6.Nh6 Bd4 7.Ng4+ Ke6 8.Kg6 Bg1 9.Nh6 Bd4 10.Nf7 Be3 11.Ng5+ Kd6 12.Kf5 Bd4 13.Nf7+ Ke7 14.Nxe5 .... .

Maybe chess engines aren't as smart as many think they are.

[hgm]

This is one of those positions that would be trivially solved by on-the-fly EGTB building.

I expect that engines equiped with the relevant 6-men EGTBs would also have no problem with it at all.

[ballinmadson]

In that line 11...Kd6?? is not very good. Instead 11...Ke7 is forced and holds the draw.

[Cubeman]

So, what is the official verdict?I can understand that Nxc5 will lead to draw.But the line the GM gave to win contains errors.
Even my PPC quickly realizes that 11..Kd6 is bad and that Ke7 is better.Anyone with 6 or 7 EGTB able to confirm.The only winning plan is to play Nxe5 with the King on f5 but there is no way for the White to zug-zwang Black.So maybe GM's aren't as smart as they think they are.

[Uri Blass]

So, what is the official verdict?I can understand that Nxc5 will lead to draw.But the line the GM gave to win contains errors.
Even my PPC quickly realizes that 11..Kd6 is bad and that Ke7 is better.Anyone with 6 or 7 EGTB able to confirm.The only winning plan is to play Nxe5 with the King on f5 but there is no way for the White to zug-zwang Black.So maybe GM's aren't as smart as they think they are.

I think that GM generally do not care about the quality of their analysis because they are not payed for the quality of their analysis so you cannot trust analysis by GM's.

I guess they could probably give more time for chess positions in case that they happened in their game and not only in some unimportant position that they are asked to analyze.

Uri

[premio53]

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mueller43.pdf

I will take GM Mueller as the final word. There was/is no winning chances.

Pachman - Hromadka
Prague 1944

[Dirt]

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mueller43.pdf

I will take GM Mueller as the final word. There was/is no winning chances.

Pachman - Hromadka
Prague 1944

Well, GM Mueller said Robin Smith showed it was a draw, which is even more convincing to me. Assuming it's our Robin Smith.