Study by Timman

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Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: Study by Timman

Post by Dirt »

bob wrote:Is Kbb3 supposed to be so hard to find? Crafty finds it instantly without endgame tables of any kind...
On my system Crafty doesn't find the right move until depth 17, with or without the five piece tablebases. That's quick, but not instant. Maybe it's because I'm still using 22.9.
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bob
Posts: 20943
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Study by Timman

Post by bob »

Dirt wrote:
bob wrote:Is Kbb3 supposed to be so hard to find? Crafty finds it instantly without endgame tables of any kind...
On my system Crafty doesn't find the right move until depth 17, with or without the five piece tablebases. That's quick, but not instant. Maybe it's because I'm still using 22.9.
Or very slow hardware...

My laptop gets this in under a second...

Code: Select all

             17     0.88  -3.39   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c3 Bg1 4.
                                    Ka5 Bb6+ 5. Ka6 Bc5 6. Ka5 Bd6 7. Ka6
                                    Be5 8. Ka7 Kc5 9. Kb7 Kc4
               17->   0.88  -3.39   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c3 Bg1 4.
                                    Ka5 Bb6+ 5. Ka6 Bc5 6. Ka5 Bd6 7. Ka6
                                    Be5 8. Ka7 Kc5 9. Kb7 Kc4 (s=2)
               18     1.08  -3.40   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c3 Bg1 4.
                                    Ka5 Bb6+ 5. Ka6 Bf2 6. Ka5 Be3 7. Kb4
                                    Bb6 8. Kb3 Bc5 9. Kc2 Kd5 10. Kd3
               18->   1.08  -3.40   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c3 Bg1 4.
                                    Ka5 Bb6+ 5. Ka6 Bf2 6. Ka5 Be3 7. Kb4
                                    Bb6 8. Kb3 Bc5 9. Kc2 Kd5 10. Kd3
               19     1.44  -3.40   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c3 Bg1 4.
                                    Ka5 Bb6+ 5. Ka6 Be3 6. Ka5 Kc5 7. Ka6
                                    Bc1 8. b3 Bf4 9. c4 b4 10. Ka7 Be5
               19->   1.49  -3.40   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c3 Bg1 4.
                                    Ka5 Bb6+ 5. Ka6 Be3 6. Ka5 Kc5 7. Ka6
                                    Bc1 8. b3 Bf4 9. c4 b4 10. Ka7 Be5
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tano-urayoan
Posts: 638
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:23 pm
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Re: Study by Timman

Post by tano-urayoan »

The problem Dr. Hyatt is that white is losing in this pv. After c3 there is a win for black in 24 according to tablebases. Your engine could play Kb3 put the critical move after Kc6 is c4 creating a fortress.

Rybka in Mr Summers post is way optimistic with -4.36.

Mr de Groot pv shows the right drawing idea altough it shows -2.12

Sr. Ballicora's Gaviota also get's the drawing idea with an eval. of -2.30

Mr Taner's Naum and Deep Fritz ditto. I dont like Fritz Be7 black should try Kd6 where Ke4 is only move.

I suppose if engines stick with the same numerical evaluation during some plies they are not detecting progress in the position, could this be considered a subtle draw notification?
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bob
Posts: 20943
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Study by Timman

Post by bob »

tano-urayoan wrote:The problem Dr. Hyatt is that white is losing in this pv. After c3 there is a win for black in 24 according to tablebases. Your engine could play Kb3 put the critical move after Kc6 is c4 creating a fortress.

Rybka in Mr Summers post is way optimistic with -4.36.

Mr de Groot pv shows the right drawing idea altough it shows -2.12

Sr. Ballicora's Gaviota also get's the drawing idea with an eval. of -2.30

Mr Taner's Naum and Deep Fritz ditto. I dont like Fritz Be7 black should try Kd6 where Ke4 is only move.

I suppose if engines stick with the same numerical evaluation during some plies they are not detecting progress in the position, could this be considered a subtle draw notification?
The PV changes at deep depths. Notice that what I cut/pasted was a couple of seconds... Here's a little longer analysis, no EGTBs at all:

Code: Select all

               30    45.61  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bg1
                                    14. Kf5 Bf2 15. Ke4 Kc5 16. Kd3 <HT>
               30->  45.92  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bg1
                                    14. Kf5 Bf2 15. Ke4 Kc5 16. Kd3 <HT>
               31    52.28  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bg1
                                    14. Kf5 Bf2 15. Ke4 Kc5 16. Kd3 <HT>
               31->  52.74  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bg1
                                    14. Kf5 Bf2 15. Ke4 Kc5 16. Kd3 <HT>
               32     1&#58;00  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bg1
                                    14. Kf5 Bf2 15. Ke4 Kc5 16. Kd3 Be1
                                    <HT>
               32->   1&#58;01  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bg1
                                    14. Kf5 Bf2 15. Ke4 Kc5 16. Kd3 Be1
                                    <HT>
               33     1&#58;21  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bc3
                                    14. Kf5 Ba1 15. Kf4 Kc5 16. Ke4 Bb2
                                    17. Ke3 Be5 18. Ke4
               33->   1&#58;22  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bc3
                                    14. Kf5 Ba1 15. Kf4 Kc5 16. Ke4 Bb2
                                    17. Ke3 Be5 18. Ke4
               34     1&#58;37  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bc3
                                    14. Kf5 Ba1 15. Kf4 Kc5 16. Ke4 Bb2
                                    17. Ke3 Bd4+ 18. Kd3 Be5 19. Ke4
               34->   1&#58;40  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. Ke4 Be1 7. b3
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Bd2 9. Kf6 Bc1 10. Kf5 Bb2
                                    11. Ke4 Ba1 12. Kf5 Bd4 13. Ke4 Bc3
                                    14. Kf5 Ba1 15. Kf4 Kc5 16. Ke4 Bb2
                                    17. Ke3 Bd4+ 18. Kd3 Be5 19. Ke4
               35     1&#58;55  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. b3 Bg3 7. Ke4
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Be1 9. Kf4 Bc3 10. Ke4 Ba1
                                    11. Kf5 Kc5 12. Ke4 Bg7 13. Kd3 Kc6
                                    14. Ke3 Bb2 15. Kf4 Bc1+ 16. Ke5 Kc5
                                    17. Ke4 Kd6 18. Kd4 Bb2+ 19. Ke4 Ba1
                                    <HT>
               35->   2&#58;02  -3.74   1. Kb3 Bxd4 2. Kb4 Kc6 3. c4 Bc5+ 4.
                                    Kc3 b4+ 5. Kd3 Bf2 6. b3 Bg3 7. Ke4
                                    Kd6 8. Kf5 Be1 9. Kf4 Bc3 10. Ke4 Ba1
                                    11. Kf5 Kc5 12. Ke4 Bg7 13. Kd3 Kc6
                                    14. Ke3 Bb2 15. Kf4 Bc1+ 16. Ke5 Kc5
                                    17. Ke4 Kd6 18. Kd4 Bb2+ 19. Ke4 Ba1
                                    <HT> &#40;s=2&#41;
...etc...
It is going to take a _long_ time to realize this is a draw, because the 50-move counter has to come into play and that is a deep search. But it is not hard to find the right moves...
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