What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

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What'd You do in this Scenario If you were Vas? (Read the whole story below)

A
6
32%
B
2
11%
C
2
11%
D
5
26%
E
2
11%
F
2
11%
 
Total votes: 19

swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by swami »

Dear All,

This is not yet another "whether chess can be solved..." thread. Rather this is hypothetical novel ridden scenario. I'd originally posted this in Rybka forum. But I'd like to post it here as well since there are people who are mainly CCC members, and don't visit Rybka forum often.

Hypothetical Situation - The Year is 2015. And you're Vas.

So, Can you DARE take up this challenge...?

Code: Select all

Let's say you're a 50 elo away from 'solving' chess. Beyond which there's an oblivion. And nothing could be improved further on no matter how hard you tried.. even years after. 

'solving' is ambiguous word. But let's set up the limit. Let's stipulate that 4000 on a comp chess rating scale is the maximum. So in distant future you find yourself in a situation where your engine couldn't be improved further on... and you've tried real hard slogging days and nights working on it, and still you find your engine stuck at 3950 even after 5 years of trying. You implement different concepts, speed up or faster hardware, genuine algorithm or something, but it's still stuck at 3950. You find that the nearest competitor is at 3400 and he had already long since given up any attempts to imrpove his program. That gives you the sense of freedom. You'd no longer be pulled in to elo-hunting rat-race ever. You'd no longer feel pressured.

Even with higher advancement in hardware department, you find that your engine is independent of the hardware speed or programming techinques. It still plays the same with faster hardware or slightly less faster hardware. Hardware issue is deemed irrelevant. It is of no help. And people continue reporting some obscure bug that program doesn't understand certain pattern in positional chess. They post several different positions where that bug in the program is evidenced. And you find that this is the *only* thing to do to finish solving chess beyond which there would be no conceptual mistakes encountered. Bug in positional pattern... that even humans could easily avoid making that positional mistake...well, strongest GM, for that matter. But your program couldn't not, no matter how much you've tried to overcome this defect.

After years of trying, you become frustrated and you decided to make an announcement that it is hard to defeat the bug, but you plan to do it anyway... people, mainly chess enthusiasts who play active chess all over the world, upon hearing your statement, stage internet-strike. They make campaigns while at the same time persuade you to kindly give up improving the program further, for the sake of them and the thousand year old (chess) board game being alive and played over and over in the future. They don't want you to destroy chess. They don't want you to  'solve' it and  throw it the checkers-way. They want you to give up -  and leave the game- They want you to exit - The Dark Knight- style. They would be really happy if you did that.

In this situation, What would you then?
  • (A) Release the source code to the public so it could be improved upon further by group of new programmers - like the way it is done with Fruit derivatives (Toga etc).

    (B) Stop programming, with the engine still stuck at 3950, with 50 elo away from solving chess. And make thousands of chess enthusiasts all over the world happy.

    (C) Hire a competitive programmer to work as a team, to find the way to solving the mystery behind the missing 50 elo and overcome the strange positional bug.

    (D) Keep trying despite knowing that it is hopeless. Hoping beyond hope that you'd find the secret mystery surrounding the missing 50 elo, and later if, provided that ever happens, take credit once you found it.

    (E) Declare the game unsolvable and Close the project and move on to some other software field, thereby saving your time spent on chess.

    (F) Other - Specify what.
Image

On a sidenote, I've gotten quite a few messages from friends asking me to return back to forum and start being active here or organize test tournaments. etc If anybody is ever going to wonder about me, I'm taking a break from computer chess but I can't make that promise. I could occassionally make posts when something catches my attention and prompts me a reply. Anyway, so much stuff happening in real life, I hardly find time to hang around here. In Spare time lately, I have been watching movies more often rather than test engines or read message boards. Ofcourse, I will be there at CCT's operating the engine Bright, also I could work on test suite alongside Dann Corbitt, in the background when I find time.

So see ya later, people!

Regards,
Swami
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Laskos
Posts: 10948
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by Laskos »

I think you missed the most probable choice, the chess is practically unsolvable and keep the project alive. Rybka is not about solving chess, that task is in the care of strong mathematicians, if it is at all, and not chess engines, Rybka is just the strongest chess engine.

Kai
swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by swami »

Laskos wrote:I think you missed the most probable choice, the chess is practically unsolvable and keep the project alive. Rybka is not about solving chess, that task is in the care of strong mathematicians, if it is at all, and not chess engines, Rybka is just the strongest chess engine.

Kai
Hello Kai,

You're ofcourse right, I'm of the same opinion that chess can never be solved. I buy Dr.Hyatt's argument. He's been making that point time and again, it did make sense.

However, what if stuff in the above theory were to happen, by chance? What if there was a genuine invention of connecting the terabytes of database to positionally suprior engine? while the endgame tablebases covers a majority of pieces and the openings were thoroughly researched deeply, with the engine only left to play some part of the middlegame, and it plays real superior flawless with the exception of the rare bug. I know this sounds like a kind of a sci-fi.

I intend to make it sound like a sci-fi. A take-it or leave-it kinda story. If anyone is willing to accept the story for fun...and want to dwell in that game.. be my guest. This ain't intended to be a serious discussion hence my introductory first sentence caveat. I've made a parody of the usual end-of-chess world apocalypse debate which happens so frequently in Rybka forum.

Regards,
Swami
terminator

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by terminator »

Swaminathan wrote:This is not yet another "whether chess can be solved..." thread. Rather this is hypothetical novel ridden scenario
I would be in favour of moving this "novel" to the CTF, where they discuss such things and sparing the CCC members any further hullabaloo.
swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by swami »

terminator wrote:
Swaminathan wrote:This is not yet another "whether chess can be solved..." thread. Rather this is hypothetical novel ridden scenario
I would be in favour of moving this "novel" to the CTF, where they discuss such things and sparing the CCC members any further hullabaloo.
It's *related* to computer chess. Subject matter involved here is computer chess. Hence it's on-topic here, just as it's on-topic on Rybka forum. If you've a problem with it, feel free to report it to the moderators. I doubt they would advocate such a narrow minded view in order to agree with you. :wink:
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towforce
Posts: 11542
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Location: Birmingham UK

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by towforce »

swami wrote:Hypothetical Situation - The Year is 2015. And you're Vas.
The scenario requires more detail as to what the financial consequences of each decision would be. I voted E, on the basis that royalties from the program would keep flowing in.
Writing is the antidote to confusion.
It's not "how smart you are", it's "how are you smart".
Your brain doesn't work the way you want, so train it!
Aleks Peshkov
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:16 pm
Location: Russia

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by Aleks Peshkov »

Rybka was never about solving chess, it would kill its business.
Is is just a commercial product, like ChessMaster. When pure chess strength will be difficult to improve, other parts of project would be developed deeper, like Aquarium, PDA version, FRC, etc.
Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by Dirt »

swami wrote:Dear All,

This is not yet another "whether chess can be solved..." thread. Rather this is hypothetical novel ridden scenario. I'd originally posted this in Rybka forum. But I'd like to post it here as well since there are people who are mainly CCC members, and don't visit Rybka forum often.

Hypothetical Situation - The Year is 2015. And you're Vas.

So, Can you DARE take up this challenge...?

Code: Select all

Let's say you're a 50 elo away from 'solving' chess. Beyond which there's an oblivion. And nothing could be improved further on no matter how hard you tried.. even years after.

'solving' is ambiguous word. But let's set up the limit. Let's stipulate that 4000 on a comp chess rating scale is the maximum. So in distant future you find yourself in a situation where your engine couldn't be improved further on... and you've tried real hard slogging days and nights working on it, and still you find your engine stuck at 3950 even after 5 years of trying. You implement different concepts, speed up or faster hardware, genuine algorithm or something, but it's still stuck at 3950. You find that the nearest competitor is at 3400 and he had already long since given up any attempts to imrpove his program. That gives you the sense of freedom. You'd no longer be pulled in to elo-hunting rat-race ever. You'd no longer feel pressured.

Even with higher advancement in hardware department, you find that your engine is independent of the hardware speed or programming techinques. It still plays the same with faster hardware or slightly less faster hardware. Hardware issue is deemed irrelevant. It is of no help. And people continue reporting some obscure bug that program doesn't understand certain pattern in positional chess. They post several different positions where that bug in the program is evidenced. And you find that this is the *only* thing to do to finish solving chess beyond which there would be no conceptual mistakes encountered. Bug in positional pattern... that even humans could easily avoid making that positional mistake...well, strongest GM, for that matter. But your program couldn't not, no matter how much you've tried to overcome this defect.

After years of trying, you become frustrated and you decided to make an announcement that it is hard to defeat the bug, but you plan to do it anyway... people, mainly chess enthusiasts who play active chess all over the world, upon hearing your statement, stage internet-strike. They make campaigns while at the same time persuade you to kindly give up improving the program further, for the sake of them and the thousand year old (chess) board game being alive and played over and over in the future. They don't want you to destroy chess. They don't want you to  'solve' it and  throw it the checkers-way. They want you to give up -  and leave the game- They want you to exit - The Dark Knight- style. They would be really happy if you did that.

In this situation, What would you then?
  • (A) Release the source code to the public so it could be improved upon further by group of new programmers - like the way it is done with Fruit derivatives (Toga etc).

    (B) Stop programming, with the engine still stuck at 3950, with 50 elo away from solving chess. And make thousands of chess enthusiasts all over the world happy.

    (C) Hire a competitive programmer to work as a team, to find the way to solving the mystery behind the missing 50 elo and overcome the strange positional bug.

    (D) Keep trying despite knowing that it is hopeless. Hoping beyond hope that you'd find the secret mystery surrounding the missing 50 elo, and later if, provided that ever happens, take credit once you found it.

    (E) Declare the game unsolvable and Close the project and move on to some other software field, thereby saving your time spent on chess.

    (F) Other - Specify what.
Back when I voted I chose F, but I neglected to specify what other action I had in mind. So here goes:

First Vas should break into the Smithsonian. There he will find a sample of moon rock on display. He needs to steal the moon rock, and then later take it to the top of PIke's peak under a full moon. Then, holding the moon rock in front of him, he must spin around widdershins a full thirty times, after which the Fairy of the Moon will grant him an audience.

The Fairy of the Moon has always hated the Apollo astronauts for stealing her rocks away, and in exchange for the lunar bit from the Smithsonian she will give Vas a supply of powerful fairy dust. If Vas will sprinkle this dust onto Rybka then she will magically gain fifty Elo points, and not just one copy but the fairy dust is so fine that it will spread around the world and improve every copy of Rybka, and in fact every other chess program too. Thus Rybka will reach the magical 4000 level and Vas will live happily ever after.

The End.
swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by swami »

Hi Greg,

You read too much fairy tales, don't you? Oh well. Yours is fantasy, whereas mine could arguably be called sci-fi, in technical sense of the word, even if its somewhat unbelievable...yet. :wink:

Btw, Just hop on to Rybka forum and see more real stuffs...loads and loads of such stories all over the place. Mine was just a parody of them all. Real thing is that quite many people on that forum actually believe such stories of chess getting solved by Rybka - whereas I don't (as I've stated in my reply to Kai).

Regards,
Swami
swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: What'd You do in this scenario if you were Vas?

Post by swami »

towforce wrote:
swami wrote:Hypothetical Situation - The Year is 2015. And you're Vas.
The scenario requires more detail as to what the financial consequences of each decision would be. I voted E, on the basis that royalties from the program would keep flowing in.
Royalties - good point, why didn't I think of that. That's interesting strategic approach. I should have added one more point to the list.

(G) Delay the work on solving chess and keep it pending - instead work on simple project add-ins such as Rybka as a teaching tool, for use on symbian, Palm, iphone, provide options to create personalities, FRC, Aquarium GUI etc on the basis that royalties from the program would keep flowing in.

Regards,
Swami