On discussing clones

[terminator]

Exactly.
this forum was made for programmers mainly from programmers.

it had to be made in the moment RGCC was not anymore a place where computerchess could have been discussed.

and this forum also comes more and more into the same situation.

So you mean programmers have a divine right to :-

1. Hijack threads and take them off-topic.
2. Conduct personal attacks/abuse.
3. Discuss cloning in every single thread whether related or un-related.

There was a time when cloning was over-discussed and spread to even un-related posts as people are arguing in a circle and starting new threads to fuel the flames. I started the "can we have the CCC forum back" in the forum help.

[Matthias Gemuh]

The problem was that cloning discussions were not limited to the existing threads but spilled across other unrelated topics.

That is also what happened here.

That is definitely not the reason why the posts about cloning were deleted.


Matthias.

[Steve B]

Okay. I missed that point. Sorry.
It's been there ever since I can remember though, so it's not recent.

Cheers, Graham.

the legal status tenent of the charter has been there as far back as i can remember
and i have been a member here since Jan 1998..3 months after the board started
i have no clue if it was part of the original charter nor when it was added but it has generally been invoked regarding the clone issue when accusations are made and not backed up with debatable evidence
again...and for the record..
clone issues are part and parcel of the topics perfectly acceptable on this board..but baseless accusation backed up with nothing more than speculation is not..

there is nothing new here under the sun
the prior mod team had this post up as a sticky during the entire length of their term
the post was written by the author of the charter in 1997

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... ight=libel

the current mod team (which includes a chess programmer)as well as prior mod teams adopt the same philosophy

Steve

[Steve B]

Since I'm in charge here I'm called an "arsehole", someone who uses "fascist methods" and now it seems I'm in general an inferior life form cause I haven't written a (public) chess program.

thats all since 3 months now Volker??
i get called that in one day..on a good day

Thick Skinned Regards
Steve

[mclane]

Exactly.
this forum was made for programmers mainly from programmers.

it had to be made in the moment RGCC was not anymore a place where computerchess could have been discussed.

and this forum also comes more and more into the same situation.

So you mean programmers have a divine right to :-

1. Hijack threads and take them off-topic.
2. Conduct personal attacks/abuse.
3. Discuss cloning in every single thread whether related or un-related.

There was a time when cloning was over-discussed and spread to even un-related posts as people are arguing in a circle and starting new threads to fuel the flames. I started the "can we have the CCC forum back" in the forum help.

from my memory what i saw here, some programmers were heavily attacked by NON programmers because they discussed cloning issues.

how can non programmers insult programmers although they cannot read programming-languages, binaries or programming data concerning the topic ?? this was tolerated. mainly i remember that christophe theron, bob hyatt and others were attacked because they tried to discuss the issue that program X has parts of program Y in the code, and the NON programmers mainly wanted to talk about ethics and by doing that shot insults towards the programmers.

i do not see programmers insulting non programmers. but i see often non programmers attack programmers. this gives a very bad taste IMO and IMO leads to programmers leaving CCC because of some idiots attacking them without having the knowledge to read a source code.

what has happened to the computerchess scene is IMO that in earlier years we had the fights between commercial guys and programmers.
and the commercial guys are now out (Hosianna!) but we have the bean counters dominating in the moment because so many programmers left the scene.

i have nothing against a huge community and discussing computerchess issues.

but it cannot be that non programmers have the right to post thread after thread where they insult chess programmers only because these programmers discuss cloning issues of famous chess programs.

HOW could non programmers judge or evaluate the topic/content issues
if they cannot read or disassemble the sources/exe's ?

instead they use the discussion as a vehicle to transport insults against the chess programmers.

IMO the whole problem here is that we now have a majority of bean counters, trying to tell the programmers what they should do or not should do etc.

its exactly what bob is saying.

the programmers mainly left the room (ccc) because the situation here IS the way bob described.

[terminator]

^^^^ That is a myth Thorsten Czub :-

No one programmer/non-programmer has a divine right to :-

1. Hijack threads and take them off-topic.
2. Conduct personal attacks/abuse.
3. Discuss cloning in every single thread whether related or un-related.

Even if they are personal friends of the site mods/admin.

[Tord Romstad]

Bob,

I get the impression that you didn't read the deleted message which caused you to start this thread, and I believe you wouldn't have reacted so strongly if you had seen it.

The post presented no evidence or interesting data whatsoever. I don't remember the exact words, but it basically just said that "Program X is a clone of Program Y, according to some people I have spoken to", and nothing more. The two programs in question were named, but not the people who were supposed to have claimed that X was a clone of Y. I don't see any value in such a post. Presenting or discussing evidence that a program is based on another is fine, but starting apparently unfounded rumors about a program is not, particularly when the author of the program is not active on this message board.

I support the moderation team 100% in this case.

Tord

[mclane]

^^^^ That is a myth Thorsten Czub :-

No one programmer/non-programmer has a divine right to :-

Even if they are personal friends of the site mods/admin.

no it isn't a myth.
i was moderator at this time (i think) and i remember that there were very personal insults coming from NON programmers directed at programmers who did the cloning discussions.

the non programmers often HAVE no other topics than washing dirty clothes of the programmers. what else could they discuss far from posting PGN or tournament results if not dirty laundry of programmers ?

the many postings were repeatively started by non programmers at that time.
it was about bob, christophe and norman. and brought the attention back from the cloning discussion that program X has parts of program Y in it.

program X was a holy cow.

and all the fans of cow X attacked those discussion the issue.

[Guenther]

Exactly.
this forum was made for programmers mainly from programmers.

it had to be made in the moment RGCC was not anymore a place where computerchess could have been discussed.

and this forum also comes more and more into the same situation.

So you mean programmers have a divine right to :-

1. Hijack threads and take them off-topic.
2. Conduct personal attacks/abuse.
3. Discuss cloning in every single thread whether related or un-related.

There was a time when cloning was over-discussed and spread to even un-related posts as people are arguing in a circle and starting new threads to fuel the flames. I started the "can we have the CCC forum back" in the forum help.

from my memory what i saw here, some programmers were heavily attacked by NON programmers because they discussed cloning issues.

how can non programmers insult programmers although they cannot read programming-languages, binaries or programming data concerning the topic ?? this was tolerated. mainly i remember that christophe theron, bob hyatt and others were attacked because they tried to discuss the issue that program X has parts of program Y in the code, and the NON programmers mainly wanted to talk about ethics and by doing that shot insults towards the programmers.

i do not see programmers insulting non programmers. but i see often non programmers attack programmers. this gives a very bad taste IMO and IMO leads to programmers leaving CCC because of some idiots attacking them without having the knowledge to read a source code.

what has happened to the computerchess scene is IMO that in earlier years we had the fights between commercial guys and programmers.
and the commercial guys are now out (Hosianna!) but we have the bean counters dominating in the moment because so many programmers left the scene.

i have nothing against a huge community and discussing computerchess issues.

but it cannot be that non programmers have the right to post thread after thread where they insult chess programmers only because these programmers discuss cloning issues of famous chess programs.

HOW could non programmers judge or evaluate the topic/content issues
if they cannot read or disassemble the sources/exe's ?

instead they use the discussion as a vehicle to transport insults against the chess programmers.

IMO the whole problem here is that we now have a majority of bean counters, trying to tell the programmers what they should do or not should do etc.

its exactly what bob is saying.

the programmers mainly left the room (ccc) because the situation here IS the way bob described.

This is complete nonsense and a twist of the past.
There were x times more facts and indications posted here on cloning
topics in the past and people cried out loud against it, which was wrong.
Now there is nada posted about facts and indications just pure
speculations and hearsay and it is of course wrong again, even when
a few uninformed programmers act on a Pavlovs reflex.
The majority of programmers does not go for unjustified speculations.
It seems you are always on the wrong side for whatever reasons...

Guenther

[AdminX]

The post presented no evidence or interesting data whatsoever. I don't remember the exact words, but it basically just said that "Program X is a clone of Program Y, according to some people I have spoken to", and nothing more. The two programs in question were named, but not the people who were supposed to have claimed that X was a clone of Y. I don't see any value in such a post. Presenting or discussing evidence that a program is based on another is fine, but starting apparently unfounded rumors about a program is not, particularly when the author of the program is not active on this message board.

Tord

I agree, however the only purpose I can see in such a post was to start another debate.