Hi experts,
In two old books (Dufresne-Mieses, Knaurs Schachbuch)
the move order in Anderssen-Kiseritzky is given by
17. Nd5 Qxb2
18. Bd6 Qxa1+
19. Ke2 Bxg1
20. e5! Na6
[D]rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 w kq -
This position is from the testset bt2630. The solution move is e5, found quickly by
little living fish. Dead stockfish never considers e5. Here some analysis by stockfish:
BBauer wrote:Hi experts,
In two old books (Dufresne-Mieses, Knaurs Schachbuch)
the move order in Anderssen-Kiseritzky is given by
17. Nd5 Qxb2
18. Bd6 Qxa1+
19. Ke2 Bxg1
20. e5! Na6
[D]rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 w kq -
This position is from the testset bt2630. The solution move is e5, found quickly by
little living fish. Dead stockfish never considers e5. Here some analysis by stockfish:
r1b1k1nr/p2p1pNp/n2B4/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 b kq - bm Kd8;
r1b1k1nr/p2p1ppp/n2B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 w kq - bm Nxg7+;
r1bk2nr/p2p1pNp/n2B1Q2/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P4/P1P1K3/q5b1 b - - bm Nxf6;
r1bk2nr/p2p1pNp/n2B4/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 w - - bm Qf6+;
r1bk3r/p2p1pNp/n2B1n2/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P4/P1P1K3/q5b1 w - - bm Be7#;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 w kq - bm e5;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 w kq - bm e5;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 b kq - bm Na6;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P5/q4Kb1 w kq - bm Ke2;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 b kq - bm Qxa1+;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5R1 b kq - bm Bxg1;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/P1P5/q4KR1 w kq - bm Ke2;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Bxg1;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Qxa1+;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1pb2N1P/4PBP1/2NP1Q2/PPP5/R4KR1 w kq - bm Nd5;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1pbN1N1P/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Qxb2;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/8/1pbN1N1P/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4KR1 w kq - bm Bd6;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n1q/1B6/4Pp2/3P1N2/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm Nh5;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n1q/1B6/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm d3;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n2/1B6/4Pp1q/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm Qh6;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n2/1B6/4Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - bm Nf3;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/7q/1B5n/4Pp1N/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm Qg5;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/7q/1B5n/4Pp2/3P1N2/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm Nh4;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/8/1B3Nqn/4Pp2/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm c6;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/8/1B4qn/4Pp1N/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm Nf5;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p2n2/1B3Nq1/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm Rg1;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p2n2/1B3Nq1/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1KR1 b kq - bm cxb5;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p5/1B3Nqn/4Pp2/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm g4;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p5/1B3Nqn/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1K1R b kq g3 bm Nf6;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3Nq1/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1KR1 w kq - bm h4;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3Nq1/4PpPP/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 b kq - bm Qg6;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3NqP/4PpP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RNB2KR1 b kq - bm Ng8;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3NqP/4PpP1/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 w kq - bm Qf3;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5nq1/1p3N1P/4PpP1/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 b kq - bm Qg5;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5nq1/1p3N2/4PpPP/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 w kq - bm h5;
rnb1kbnr/p1pp1ppp/8/1B6/4Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR b kq - bm Nf6;
rnb1kbnr/p1pp1ppp/8/1p6/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - bm Bxb5;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1p3N1P/4PBP1/2NP1Q2/PPP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Bc5;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1p3N1P/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RN3KR1 w kq - bm Nc3;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/8/1p3NqP/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RN3KR1 b kq - bm Qf6;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/8/1p3NqP/4PpP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RNB2KR1 w kq - bm Bxf4;
rnb1kbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR b kq - bm b5;
rnb1kbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - bm Kf1;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm f4;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/4PP2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - bm exf4;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/2B1Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - bm Qh4+;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/4Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm Bc4;
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - bm e5;
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm e4;
It's very difficult to find really "clean" testsuite nowadays! With faster and faster computers and better programs You always find new better or alternative moves. So You must have a lot of positions. Then 10% of dubious/wrong positions ones doesn't count in total result.
Hi,
I was not astonished that the old test suite was flawed, but that Re1 was not even considered. Perhaps it is more difficult to find Re1 than e5.
If you choose the other move order e5! is the move to go for.
Is wikipedia not reliable?
Kind regards
Bernhard
This is new book and the other move order is not mentioned. It would have made more sense. My sources are much older than this book. Dufresne-Mieses is from 1881.
Kind regards
Bernhard
Hallo,
I couldn't see any sources in that paper. I only see that Marek Soszynski edited that paper.
There is nothing written about Andersen beginning the game with the black pieces. The original game was written in descriptic notation.
The game given by Dufresne-Mises looks more logical.
Kind regards
Bernhard
I couldn't see any sources in that paper. [...] There is nothing written about Andersen beginning the game with the black pieces. The original game was written in descriptic notation.
What? In case you did not read the review - which is becoming increasingly obvious - Kieseritzky used his own special notation.
BBauer wrote:Hi experts,
In two old books (Dufresne-Mieses, Knaurs Schachbuch)
the move order in Anderssen-Kiseritzky is given by
17. Nd5 Qxb2
18. Bd6 Qxa1+
19. Ke2 Bxg1
20. e5! Na6
[D]rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 w kq -
This position is from the testset bt2630. The solution move is e5, found quickly by
little living fish. Dead stockfish never considers e5. Here some analysis by stockfish:
r1b1k1nr/p2p1pNp/n2B4/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 b kq - bm Kd8;
r1b1k1nr/p2p1ppp/n2B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 w kq - bm Nxg7+;
r1bk2nr/p2p1pNp/n2B1Q2/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P4/P1P1K3/q5b1 b - - bm Nxf6;
r1bk2nr/p2p1pNp/n2B4/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 w - - bm Qf6+;
r1bk3r/p2p1pNp/n2B1n2/1p1NP2P/6P1/3P4/P1P1K3/q5b1 w - - bm Be7#;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 w kq - bm e5;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1N1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 w kq - bm e5;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5b1 b kq - bm Na6;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/P1P5/q4Kb1 w kq - bm Ke2;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1p1NPN1P/6P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4Kb1 b kq - bm Qxa1+;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/P1P1K3/q5R1 b kq - bm Bxg1;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/P1P5/q4KR1 w kq - bm Ke2;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Bxg1;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/3B4/1pbN1N1P/4P1P1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Qxa1+;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1pb2N1P/4PBP1/2NP1Q2/PPP5/R4KR1 w kq - bm Nd5;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1pbN1N1P/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Qxb2;
rnb1k1nr/p2p1ppp/8/1pbN1N1P/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PqP5/R4KR1 w kq - bm Bd6;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n1q/1B6/4Pp2/3P1N2/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm Nh5;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n1q/1B6/4Pp2/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm d3;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n2/1B6/4Pp1q/5N2/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm Qh6;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/5n2/1B6/4Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - bm Nf3;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/7q/1B5n/4Pp1N/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm Qg5;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/7q/1B5n/4Pp2/3P1N2/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm Nh4;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/8/1B3Nqn/4Pp2/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R b kq - bm c6;
rnb1kb1r/p1pp1ppp/8/1B4qn/4Pp1N/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm Nf5;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p2n2/1B3Nq1/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm Rg1;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p2n2/1B3Nq1/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1KR1 b kq - bm cxb5;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p5/1B3Nqn/4Pp2/3P4/PPP3PP/RNBQ1K1R w kq - bm g4;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/2p5/1B3Nqn/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1K1R b kq g3 bm Nf6;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3Nq1/4PpP1/3P4/PPP4P/RNBQ1KR1 w kq - bm h4;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3Nq1/4PpPP/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 b kq - bm Qg6;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3NqP/4PpP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RNB2KR1 b kq - bm Ng8;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5n2/1p3NqP/4PpP1/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 w kq - bm Qf3;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5nq1/1p3N1P/4PpP1/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 b kq - bm Qg5;
rnb1kb1r/p2p1ppp/5nq1/1p3N2/4PpPP/3P4/PPP5/RNBQ1KR1 w kq - bm h5;
rnb1kbnr/p1pp1ppp/8/1B6/4Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR b kq - bm Nf6;
rnb1kbnr/p1pp1ppp/8/1p6/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR w kq - bm Bxb5;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1p3N1P/4PBP1/2NP1Q2/PPP5/R4KR1 b kq - bm Bc5;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/5q2/1p3N1P/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RN3KR1 w kq - bm Nc3;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/8/1p3NqP/4PBP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RN3KR1 b kq - bm Qf6;
rnb1kbnr/p2p1ppp/8/1p3NqP/4PpP1/3P1Q2/PPP5/RNB2KR1 w kq - bm Bxf4;
rnb1kbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQ1KNR b kq - bm b5;
rnb1kbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/2B1Pp1q/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - bm Kf1;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm f4;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/4PP2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - bm exf4;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/2B1Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - bm Qh4+;
rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/8/4Pp2/8/PPPP2PP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm Bc4;
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - bm e5;
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - bm e4;
Here is that set of EPD records, decorated with 12 minutes of Rybka time: