Endgame best move

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Howard E
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Endgame best move

Post by Howard E »

[D] 4r3/7R/3K1k2/3RpP2/4P3/6r1/8/8 w - - bm Kd7;

Many engines play Rh6+ and end up with something similar to this next diagram. This is a draw accessing the online 6 man tbs


[D] 4k3/8/4P3/1R2K3/4P3/3r4/8/8 b - -
BBauer
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

Re: Endgame best move

Post by BBauer »

I tryed 2 enginesfor some time. Both played the drawing move.
Looks like nobody had success. Really a remarkable position.
kind regards
Bernhard
Edmund
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Endgame best move

Post by Edmund »

with its blocked pawns it looks like a good position to be analyzed by freezer. Unfortunately I haven't got the correct 6men egtbs.
Omega-three

Re: Endgame best move

Post by Omega-three »

Rybka seems to find this very quickly with only 4 man tb.

New game - Rybka 3, 120'/40+60'/20+30'
4r3/7R/3K1k2/3RpP2/4P3/6r1/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3:

1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8 4.Rc5
+- (2.22) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8 4.Rc5 Rd3+
+- (2.23) Depth: 7 00:00:00 4kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7[] 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8 4.Rc5 Rd3+ 5.Kxe5 Rg3 6.Rc7
+- (2.23) Depth: 8 00:00:00 8kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7[] 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8[] 4.Rc5 Rd3+ 5.Kxe5 Rg3 6.Rc7 Ra3
+- (2.22) Depth: 9 00:00:00 13kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7[] 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8[] 4.Rc5 Rd3+ 5.Kxe5 Rg3 6.Rc7 Ra3 7.Rd7
+- (2.22) Depth: 10 00:00:00 19kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7[] 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8[] 4.Rc5 Rd3+ 5.Kxe5[] Rg3 6.Rc7 Ra3 7.Rd7 Rb3
+- (2.22) Depth: 11 00:00:00 34kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7[] 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8 4.Rc5 Rd3+ 5.Kxe5[] Rg3 6.Rc7 Ra3 7.Rd7 Rb3 8.Rh7
+- (2.22) Depth: 12 00:00:00 51kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7[] 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Ke8[] 4.Rc5 Rd3+ 5.Kxe5[] Rg3 6.Rc7 Ra3 7.Rd7 Rb3
+- (2.22) Depth: 13 00:00:00 88kN
1.Kd7
+- (2.42 !) Depth: 13 00:00:00 155kN
1.Kd7
+- (2.62 !) Depth: 13 00:00:00 169kN
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+[] Kg5[] 3.f6[] Ra3 4.f7 Ra7+ 5.Ke6[] Rf8 6.Rg7+[] Kf4 7.Rd1[] Kxe4 8.Rg5 Ke3 9.Rxe5+ Kf4 10.Rf5+ Ke3 11.Rd7 Ra6+ 12.Ke7
+- (2.98) Depth: 13 00:00:01 291kN, tb=1
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+[] Kg5[] 3.f6[] Ra3 4.f7 Ra7+ 5.Ke6[] Rf8 6.Rg7+[] Kf4 7.Rd1[] Kxe4 8.Rg5 Ke3 9.Rxe5+ Kf4 10.Rf5+ Ke3 11.Rd7 Ra6+ 12.Ke7
+- (2.98) Depth: 14 00:00:01 320kN, tb=1
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+[] Kg5[] 3.f6[] Ra3 4.f7 Ra7+ 5.Ke6[] Rf8 6.Rg7+[] Kf4 7.Rd1 Kxe4 8.Rg5 Kf3 9.Rxe5 Kf4 10.Rf5+
+- (2.98) Depth: 15 00:00:02 429kN, tb=3
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4
+- (2.98) Depth: 16 00:00:03 757kN, tb=14
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7 Kxe4[] 7.Re6 Ra7+ 8.Ke8 Ra8+ 9.Ke7[] Kf4 10.Ra6 Rc8 11.Rc6 Rh8 12.Rf6+
+- (2.98) Depth: 17 00:00:04 1087kN, tb=37
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5[] 3.Rg7+[] Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7 Kxe4[] 7.Re6 Ra7+ 8.Ke8 Ra8+ 9.Ke7[] Kf4 10.Ra6 Rc8 11.Rc6 Rh8 12.Rh6
+- (2.98) Depth: 18 00:00:07 1676kN, tb=114
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5[] 3.Rg7+[] Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7 Kxe4[] 7.Re6 Ra7+ 8.Ke8 Ra8+ 9.Ke7[] Kf4 10.Ra6 Rc8 11.Rc6 Rh8 12.Rh6
+- (2.98) Depth: 19 00:00:10 2413kN, tb=135
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5[] 3.Rg7+[] Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7 Kxe4 7.Re6 Ra7+ 8.Ke8[] Ra8+ 9.Ke7[] Kf4 10.Ra6 Rc8 11.Rc6 Rh8 12.Rh6
+- (2.98) Depth: 20 00:00:15 3514kN, tb=214
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5[] 3.Rg7+[] Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7 Kxe4 7.Ra6 Rb8 8.Re6 Rb7+ 9.Ke8 Rb8+ 10.Ke7[] Kf4 11.Rb6
+- (2.98) Depth: 21 00:00:25 5672kN, tb=390
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5[] 3.Rg7+[] Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7
+- (2.98) Depth: 22 00:00:37 8850kN, tb=621
1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5[] 3.Rg7+[] Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Ra8 6.f7
+- (2.98) Depth: 23 00:00:58 13970kN, tb=1015
kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: Endgame best move

Post by kgburcham »

[D] 4r3/7R/3K1k2/3RpP2/4P3/6r1/8/8 w - -

Rybka 3 without Tablebases

12.01 0:01 +2.62++ 1.Kd7 (236.290) 203
13.01 0:01 +2.77 1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 (295.439) 205
14.01 0:01 +2.77 1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.f6 Ra3 (338.906) 207
15.01 0:02 +2.97++ 1.Kd7 (494.461) 207
16.01 0:04 +3.15 1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.f6 Ra3 4.f7 Ra7+ 5.Ke6 Rf8 6.Rg7+ Kf4 7.Rd1 Kxe4 8.Rg5 Kf4 (941.498) 217
17.01 0:07 +2.96 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 (1.646.853) 230
18.01 0:09 +2.96 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Kxe4 6.f7 Ra8 7.Re6 Ra7+ (2.241.008) 232
19.01 0:12 +2.96 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Kxe4 6.f7 Ra8 7.Ra6 Rb8 8.Rb6 (2.842.512) 234
20.01 0:17 +2.96 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Kxe4 6.f7 Ra8 7.Ra6 Rb8 8.Rb6 (3.904.278) 229
21.01 0:26 +2.96 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Kxe4 6.f7 Ra8 7.Ra6 Rb8 8.Rb6 (6.025.428) 236
22.01 0:39 +2.96 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Kxe4 6.f7 Ra8 7.Ra6 Rb8 8.Rb6 (9.641.141) 248
23.01 2:48 +2.65 1.Kd7 Rgg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rg7+ Kf4 4.Rxg8 Rxg8 5.f6 Kxe4 6.f7 Ra8 7.Ra6 Rb8 8.Rb6 (44.400.095) 269
23.02 8:32 +2.82 1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Kd7 Ra8 3.Rh7+ Kf6 4.Rd6+ (118.177.623) 236
Howard E
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Endgame best move

Post by Howard E »

Seems like Rybka is the only solver of this.
swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: Endgame best move

Post by swami »

Howard E wrote:Seems like Rybka is the only solver of this.
Nope. CCT version of Bright finds this: (Have you tried the freely available Bright, though?)

New game
4r3/7R/3K1k2/3RpP2/4P3/6r1/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by bright-0.4-cct1:


1.Rd7
+/- (1.10) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00
1.Rh6+ Kg7
+- (1.71) Depth: 1/9 00:00:00
1.Rh6+ Kg7 2.Rh2
+- (1.59) Depth: 2/10 00:00:00
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rh6+ Kg5
+- (1.69) Depth: 2/10 00:00:00
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rh6+ Kg5
+- (1.69) Depth: 3/10 00:00:00
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.f6 Rf3
+- (1.66) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rgg8 3.Rxe8 Rxe8 4.Rxe5
+- (2.28) Depth: 4/13 00:00:00
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rf3
+- (2.52) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rf3 5.Ke5
+- (2.47) Depth: 6/14 00:00:00 11kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rd3+ 5.Ke5 Re3 6.Rh6
+- (2.49) Depth: 7/14 00:00:00 19kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rd3+ 5.Ke5 Re3 6.Rh6 Kg7
+- (2.63) Depth: 8/19 00:00:01 74kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rd3+ 5.Ke5 Rc3 6.f6 Rc5+ 7.Kd4 Kxe6 8.Kxc5
+- (2.67) Depth: 9/22 00:00:01 131kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rd3+ 5.Ke5 Rb3 6.Rd6 Rb5+ 7.Rd5 Rb7 8.f6
+- (2.75) Depth: 10/26 00:00:01 219kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rd3+ 5.Ke5 Rb3 6.Rd6 Rb5+ 7.Rd5 Rb7 8.f6 Rc7
+- (2.87) Depth: 11/26 00:00:01 663kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rd8+ 3.Kxe5 Rxd5+ 4.Kxd5 Rd3+ 5.Ke5 Rb3 6.Rd6 Rb5+ 7.Rd5 Rb7 8.f6 Rc7 9.Kf5
+- (2.80) Depth: 12/29 00:00:01 1211kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Rh8+ Ke7 10.Rc8 Re3 11.Rc7+ Ke8
+- (3.01) Depth: 13/30 00:00:02 2537kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Rh8+ Ke7 10.Rc8 Re3 11.Rc7+ Ke8
+- (3.01) Depth: 14/39 00:00:02 4095kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Rh8+ Ke7 10.Rc8 Re3 11.Rc7+ Kf8 12.Rf7+ Ke8
+- (3.01) Depth: 15/39 00:00:02 6753kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Kf8 9.Rd7 Re2 10.Rc7 Re3 11.Rf7+ Ke8
+- (3.01) Depth: 16/39 00:00:02 13966kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Kf8 9.Rd7 Ke8 10.Rf7 Rc3 11.Rh7 Re3
+- (3.01) Depth: 17/39 00:00:04 28177kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Kf8 9.Rd7 Re2 10.Rc7 Ke8 11.Rc8+ Ke7 12.Rb8 Re3 13.Rb7+ Ke8
+- (3.01) Depth: 18/44 00:00:15 94694kN
1.Rh6+ Kf7 2.Re6 Rxe6+ 3.fxe6+ Kf8 4.Kxe5 Ra3 5.Rd8+ Ke7 6.Rd7+ Ke8 7.Rg7 Re3 8.Rh7 Kf8 9.Rd7 Ke8 10.Rf7 Re2 11.Rh7 Rf2 12.Rd7 Re2
+- (3.01) Depth: 19/44 00:00:34 214mN
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rh1 Kf4 4.f6 Ra3 5.Ke7 Ra7+ 6.Rd7 Raa8 7.f7 Rgf8 8.Re1 Rab8 9.Rd6 Ra8 10.Rf6+ Kg5 11.Rg1+ Kh5 12.Rf5+ Kh6 13.Rxe5
+- (3.19) Depth: 19/44 00:00:52 330mN

1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rh1 Kf4 4.f6 Ra3 5.Ke7 Ra7+ 6.Rd7 Raa8 7.f7 Rgf8 8.Re1 Kf3 9.Rd3+ Kf2 10.Rh1 Ke2 11.Rb3 Kf2 12.Rh2+ Kg1 13.Rh5
+- (3.30) Depth: 20/45 00:01:38 522mN
1.Kd7 Reg8 2.Rd6+ Kg5 3.Rh1 Kf4 4.f6 Ra3 5.Ke7 Ra7+ 6.Rd7 Raa8 7.f7 Rgf8 8.Re1 Kf3 9.Rd3+ Kf4 10.Rd6 Kg3 11.Rf6 Kg2 12.Rf5 Kg3 13.Rxe5
+- (3.60) Depth: 21/47 00:02:16 881mN


Howard E
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Endgame best move

Post by Howard E »

FEN: 4r3/7R/3K1k2/3RpP2/4P3/6r1/8/8 w - - 0 1

Bright-0.3a:
18/46 00:07 88.140.442 11.488 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rh3 Ra7 Rh2 Rf7 Rb2 Rg7
19/48 00:17 213.110.154 12.387 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rh3 Ra7 Rh1 Rb7 Re1 Kd6 Rd1+ Kc5
20/52 00:48 621.145.661 12.827 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rf1 Rg7 Rb1 Rh7 Rc1 Ra7 Re1 Kd6 Rd1+ Kc5
21/52 01:26 1.126.341.993 12.955 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rf1 Rg7 Rb1 Rf7 Rc1 Ra7 Re1 Kd6 Rd1+ Kc5
22/54 04:37 3.604.213,823 12.973 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rf1 Rg7 Rb1 Rf7 Rc1 Ra7 Rh1 Rb7 Re1 Kd6 Rd1+ Kc5
23/62 10:04 3.547.233,483 5.870 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rf1 Rg7 Rb1 Rf7 Rc1 Rh7 Re1 Ra7 Re2 Kd6 Rd2+ Kc5
23/62 15:34 3.596.190,950 3.847 +2.92 Rh6+ Kf7 Re6 Rxe6+ fxe6+ Ke8 Rc5 Rd3+ Kxe5 Rh3 Rc8+ Ke7 Rc7+ Ke8 Rg7 Rh2 Rb7 Rh1 Rd7 Rf1 Rg7 Rb1 Rf7 Rc1 Rh7 Re1 Ra7 Re2 Kd6 Rd2+ Kc5

No luck with Bright 0.3a
8 threads
core i7 - 920
512 hash
bitbases on (5 piece)

do these times seem to be consistent for 8 threads? (8 threads for a quad with hyper threading turned on)
ernest
Posts: 2041
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:30 pm

Re: Endgame best move

Post by ernest »

Howard E wrote:Seems like Rybka is the only solver of this.
Who says Kd7 wins? :o
Howard E
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Endgame best move

Post by Howard E »

As Rybka plays through it the score steadily climbed to over+5.
Lots of manoevering involved. So I just trusted the Rybka analysis. Of course one cannot be 100% certain if it is winning but I am sure that it is the best move.