Is this IBM's successor to Deep Blue?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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bob
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Re: Machines with an elo of 3.00 or more, is an absolute lie

Post by bob »

Father wrote:Chess machines with an elo of 2.000 or more elo, is an absolute Myth and lie


... sure, but everybody could see then, not by me, for many people, the Myth gives many draws and why not, failures, playing it against GM, I.M., MF, and many many amateurs...

We won’t forget… There is not any chess perfect chess machine. They usually give draws to amateurs, and people, with elo, not superior to 1.200 Fide.
Do a search for "deep thought" which was the predecessor to deep blue. It produced a 2600 rating playing _many_ top players, not just Kasparov. It played in matches. It played in Tournaments. It played in Computer events. It took on all comers and was extremely strong in actual performance. DB was better. How much better we could debate, but better than 2600 still says a lot.
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Leto
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Re: Machines with an elo of 3.00 or more, is an absolute lie

Post by Leto »

This task is much more complicated than you'd imagine. We humans are great at understanding context. Show a picture of a dog to a three-year-old, and she'd be able to correctly identify most if not all breeds of dogs as dogs. How could you give that ability to an artificial intelligence without teaching it what every dog breed looks like? How can an artificial intelligence tell the difference between a dog and a cat? It's technically possible, but not easy to do.

Here's another example: "Mary saw the puppy in the window, she wanted it." Most humans would be able to understand that Mary wants the puppy, but how could an artificial intelligence understand that the puppy is more desirable than a window? The AI would need to know that humans value puppies more than windows.

Now let's see how challenging this Jeopardy thing really is for artificial intelligence. Let's look at some examples of actual Jeopardy questions and answers:

Category Odd Jobs:
$100:
Eliza Dolittle did it for a living.

Correct reponse: Sold flowers

How could an AI know that? It would need to know that the phrase "for a living" means occupation. Also someone or something would have had to inform the AI that Eliza Dolittle was a flowergirl. Not easy stuff.

Category Musicians:
$1000:
His brilliance on the violin might be explained by his unusual hand formation

Correct response: Jascha Heifetz

One of the contestants actually managed to get the correct response, although he finished the event at second place. But how would an artificial intelligence know this? Even looking at the current version of the Jascha Heifetz article at Wikipedia, it appears that nothing is available in the article that would help you answer this question, the only thing that seems relevant to his hand would be the fact that he was attacked with a crowbar in Israel, and his hand became swollen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jascha_Heifetz

I'd be very surprised if the computer does well in this challenge.
james uselton

Re: Deep blue 100% machine and 1.000% Myth

Post by james uselton »

Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Father wrote:... I was forgotten ... Deep Blue is a strong machine built by man beings, over, 10% of technology, and 90% of legend or Myth. I.B.M. strongest move, was eraser all the chances for beating Deep Blue, for common, normal, and not special or smart people. Personally I believe, that Deep Blue is over all a fantasia & trick against human being intelligence of its ege.When history is written for its authors, history is in an important %, a lie.
It may have been a myth, but it kicked Garry Kasparov's butt. You have to be mythologically strong to do that, psychout or no psychout.
...And IBM will probably whip your ass at Jeopardy!
Did you ever notice how easy the chess questions are on jeopardy.
1. This man played Fischer for the championship in 1972?
2. No one wins with this kind of mate. And so it goes...

Hopefully the computer generated chess questions for chess will actually stretch the most knowledgeable chess people---For instance---

1. When Judit Polgar was married in 2001, this man was the only Grandmaster to receive an invitation.

2. Pertrosian had a reputation of being one of the hardest players to beat. Yet this man seemed to have his number going undefeated in 12 games-+3 -0 =9.

3. Nimzovitch was referring to this man when he said---"That I should lose to this idiot!"

4. This is real tricky---be careful!---This man, who was one of the participants of Curacao 1962, was sent an invitation to the 40th aniversary reunion of the great tournament in 2002. His reply---"No thanks, I have lost all interest in chess."

5. This mega-movie star, before his career took off, once finished third in the Western Australia Chess Championship.
Dann Corbit
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Re: Deep blue 100% machine and 1.000% Myth

Post by Dann Corbit »

Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Father wrote:... I was forgotten ... Deep Blue is a strong machine built by man beings, over, 10% of technology, and 90% of legend or Myth. I.B.M. strongest move, was eraser all the chances for beating Deep Blue, for common, normal, and not special or smart people. Personally I believe, that Deep Blue is over all a fantasia & trick against human being intelligence of its ege.When history is written for its authors, history is in an important %, a lie.
It may have been a myth, but it kicked Garry Kasparov's butt. You have to be mythologically strong to do that, psychout or no psychout.
...And IBM will probably whip your ass at Jeopardy!
No argument there. In fact, that is exactly what I was saying upthread:
For a computer, winning at Jeopardy is not impressive to me. I think other problems are much more difficult.

If you can show a computer a short video clip of an animal and have the computer tell us what animal it is {exactly}, that would be very impressive.

I think that having a computer tie an arbitrary pair of shoes at an arbitrary location would be more impressive than having it win a game of Jeopardy.
Terry McCracken
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Re: Deep blue 100% machine and 1.000% Myth

Post by Terry McCracken »

Dann Corbit wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Father wrote:... I was forgotten ... Deep Blue is a strong machine built by man beings, over, 10% of technology, and 90% of legend or Myth. I.B.M. strongest move, was eraser all the chances for beating Deep Blue, for common, normal, and not special or smart people. Personally I believe, that Deep Blue is over all a fantasia & trick against human being intelligence of its ege.When history is written for its authors, history is in an important %, a lie.
It may have been a myth, but it kicked Garry Kasparov's butt. You have to be mythologically strong to do that, psychout or no psychout.
...And IBM will probably whip your ass at Jeopardy!
No argument there. In fact, that is exactly what I was saying upthread:
For a computer, winning at Jeopardy is not impressive to me. I think other problems are much more difficult.

If you can show a computer a short video clip of an animal and have the computer tell us what animal it is {exactly}, that would be very impressive.

I think that having a computer tie an arbitrary pair of shoes at an arbitrary location would be more impressive than having it win a game of Jeopardy.
The point IBM is making is that computers don't handle language nuances well let alone understand a picture or video.

I think you're downplaying it too much. Of course once it understood the question and if in its database it's easy but if not then it will have to make a guess just as you would and that is hard for a machine.

All the Chatboxes on the net are a joke! This is going to be one that hopefully works.
Dann Corbit
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Re: Deep blue 100% machine and 1.000% Myth

Post by Dann Corbit »

Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Father wrote:... I was forgotten ... Deep Blue is a strong machine built by man beings, over, 10% of technology, and 90% of legend or Myth. I.B.M. strongest move, was eraser all the chances for beating Deep Blue, for common, normal, and not special or smart people. Personally I believe, that Deep Blue is over all a fantasia & trick against human being intelligence of its ege.When history is written for its authors, history is in an important %, a lie.
It may have been a myth, but it kicked Garry Kasparov's butt. You have to be mythologically strong to do that, psychout or no psychout.
...And IBM will probably whip your ass at Jeopardy!
No argument there. In fact, that is exactly what I was saying upthread:
For a computer, winning at Jeopardy is not impressive to me. I think other problems are much more difficult.

If you can show a computer a short video clip of an animal and have the computer tell us what animal it is {exactly}, that would be very impressive.

I think that having a computer tie an arbitrary pair of shoes at an arbitrary location would be more impressive than having it win a game of Jeopardy.
The point IBM is making is that computers don't handle language nuances well let alone understand a picture or video.

I think you're downplaying it too much. Of course once it understood the question and if in its database it's easy but if not then it will have to make a guess just as you would and that is hard for a machine.
The machine can use Bayesian logic to make spectacularly good guesses.
All the Chatboxes on the net are a joke! This is going to be one that hopefully works.
Terry McCracken
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Location: Canada

Re: Deep blue 100% machine and 1.000% Myth

Post by Terry McCracken »

Dann Corbit wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Father wrote:... I was forgotten ... Deep Blue is a strong machine built by man beings, over, 10% of technology, and 90% of legend or Myth. I.B.M. strongest move, was eraser all the chances for beating Deep Blue, for common, normal, and not special or smart people. Personally I believe, that Deep Blue is over all a fantasia & trick against human being intelligence of its ege.When history is written for its authors, history is in an important %, a lie.
It may have been a myth, but it kicked Garry Kasparov's butt. You have to be mythologically strong to do that, psychout or no psychout.
...And IBM will probably whip your ass at Jeopardy!
No argument there. In fact, that is exactly what I was saying upthread:
For a computer, winning at Jeopardy is not impressive to me. I think other problems are much more difficult.

If you can show a computer a short video clip of an animal and have the computer tell us what animal it is {exactly}, that would be very impressive.

I think that having a computer tie an arbitrary pair of shoes at an arbitrary location would be more impressive than having it win a game of Jeopardy.
The point IBM is making is that computers don't handle language nuances well let alone understand a picture or video.

I think you're downplaying it too much. Of course once it understood the question and if in its database it's easy but if not then it will have to make a guess just as you would and that is hard for a machine.
The machine can use Bayesian logic to make spectacularly good guesses.
All the Chatboxes on the net are a joke! This is going to be one that hopefully works.
If it's alll so simple then why bother? Why is IBM doing what Hasbro can do??
Father
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Deep Blue was a Nihilist project. History was lied

Post by Father »

Dear Doctor Robert Hyatt

First of all, in order to respect your position or status as professor and scientist as you are, it is very important for me, to write this little sentence, with all humility, because of, I am not a Mathematician person, or a scientist, or a person that is in high development of any project. Then I hope, you take my words with some consideration, about my own amateur side, and obvious limitation and probably margin of error.

I believe, or better, I have sniffed ever, than Deep Blue, was a Nihilist Project, where, the team works as a pawn8naive or innocent) of a high monetary interest by itself, without the knowledge for them, about that. The priority over all, was for the engine team, beat to Mister Kasparov, and then Mister Kasparov were other pawn that discover his condition of pawn only after the debacle of their six Karajan(??) game.

Mister Kasparov If my memory is not failing, told us, that he was feeling as playing against a different opponent, game per game. Then, it looks for me ever, as a modification into Deep Blue parameters or preference, game per game. I don’t have any prove about that, and I wont have any prove about that in my first travel in the Earth, now, but if that was true, was unfair, and against Mister Kasparov and our human being condition.

But as a consequence of a Nihilist project or goal, where reason and faith was forgiven, human beings when assembled the computer they built the chess machine player, and when they(I.B.M.), took apart or striped down the engine, they created the Myth ... then, history was fooled by itself. Why? Because everybody forgot the importance, of faith and reason, as the base of Western civilization.

Best,

Pablo
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
bob
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Re: Deep Blue was a Nihilist project. History was lied

Post by bob »

Father wrote:Dear Doctor Robert Hyatt

First of all, in order to respect your position or status as professor and scientist as you are, it is very important for me, to write this little sentence, with all humility, because of, I am not a Mathematician person, or a scientist, or a person that is in high development of any project. Then I hope, you take my words with some consideration, about my own amateur side, and obvious limitation and probably margin of error.

I believe, or better, I have sniffed ever, than Deep Blue, was a Nihilist Project, where, the team works as a pawn8naive or innocent) of a high monetary interest by itself, without the knowledge for them, about that. The priority over all, was for the engine team, beat to Mister Kasparov, and then Mister Kasparov were other pawn that discover his condition of pawn only after the debacle of their six Karajan(??) game.

Mister Kasparov If my memory is not failing, told us, that he was feeling as playing against a different opponent, game per game. Then, it looks for me ever, as a modification into Deep Blue parameters or preference, game per game. I don’t have any prove about that, and I wont have any prove about that in my first travel in the Earth, now, but if that was true, was unfair, and against Mister Kasparov and our human being condition.

But as a consequence of a Nihilist project or goal, where reason and faith was forgiven, human beings when assembled the computer they built the chess machine player, and when they(I.B.M.), took apart or striped down the engine, they created the Myth ... then, history was fooled by itself. Why? Because everybody forgot the importance, of faith and reason, as the base of Western civilization.

Best,

Pablo
That's Kasparov's "line". But it was far from the truth, initially. I believe that throughout the 80's and early 90's, _every_ computer chess author's goal was to beat the current world champion, who was, at the time, Kasparov. But none of us pursued that specific goal by studying his games and such. We tried to develop the best, fastest, smartest engines we could, given the hardware we had available. Some of us had better hardware than others (I was an example, using 30+ million dollar Cray computers.) The Deep Thought project, started around 1985, was just a continuation of the hardware approaches started by Belle, Bebe and HiTech. They played in _every_ ACM computer chess tournament. They played in Human tournaments all over the US and even some outside the US when they could enter. Only after they finished their degrees at CMU and were hired by IBM did their direction change. IBM wanted to build the biggest and fastest chess computer ever made. To this day they are certainly faster than anything seen so far, peaking at one billion nodes per second. IBM pulled the strings for the two Kasparov matches, because of the incredible publicity they knew they would obtain should they win.

But the project overall was hardly just about beating Kasparov. It was to beat every player on the planet, including Kasparov who happened to be at the top of the heap.

As far as the changing DB between rounds, there never has been a stipulation to make that illegal. Humans can go off between rounds and decide to play a different opening, or they can decide to play more positional than tactical this game to surprise their opponent, or whatever. Many chess programmers are busy tweaking between rounds. But most mature programmers do not do this, knowing how easy it is to introduce errors, which can lose a key game. I do not know whether deep blue was modified between rounds or not. It was too long ago. I used to talk to those guys regularly, Id know Murray for many years and we had tested various ideas together many times. I just don't remember whether they made any changes or not. But more importantly, who cares? There was certainly no rule preventing it.

Kasparov was busy throwing a tantrum, and might have mentioned anything he could to create suspicion. He should have just stood up, shook their hand, and said "I won't let that happen again." and he may well have won the third match, had that happened. But he didn't, he accused them of cheating, and any chance for a third and deciding match evaporated on the spot.

None of us that were active at the time had any doubt about the strength of the machine. Many of us played them multiple games, and watched them win almost every computer chess event from 1987 on, not to mention their performance against a wide range of strong human players in all sorts of tournaments and matches. The machine was a beast. Some today might well be as good or better. But in 1996 or so there was _nothing_ even remotely close to DB, in terms of other programs or hardware. Absolutely nothing.
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towforce
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Re: Machines with an elo of 3.00 or more, is an absolute lie

Post by towforce »

Leto wrote:Here's another example: "Mary saw the puppy in the window, she wanted it." Most humans would be able to understand that Mary wants the puppy, but how could an artificial intelligence understand that the puppy is more desirable than a window?
My personal favourite: "She saw the mountain flying over the Alps".

That sentence obviously means that the girl was flying over the Alps, and she saw the mountain on the ground. However, if all you do is resolve the grammer correctly, then we have a flying mountain! Humans are doing a lot of intelligent work to get to the intended meaning - but they do it so quickly that they barely notice that they are doing it. This might be an extreme example, but we're actually doing this kind of intelligent interpretation all day.
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