Trusted testers wanted

[Tord Romstad]

I don't understand. If Tord gets your change and it is an improvement, it will be public.

Only if I decided to make it public -- which I probably wouldn't, at least not without asking Volker whether it is OK to him.

Tord

[Marc Lacrosse]

Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.

I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

Tord

The point is that the program he sends is ( and not "will be"as you emphasize) GPL- licensed because it is a derivative of a GPL program.

And his version being a GPL-program that he did not himself originally author, this version is not allowed to be restricted for distribution in any way as soon as he himself sends it to anyone.

No one who receives this version from Volker has to publish it for sure but volker should not say that he forbids redistribution : redistribution is always allowed in this case.

Moreover the whole sense of GPL is that redistribution of a modified program is not only always allowed but is even recommended.

And this cannot be changed by any intermediate in this kind of developping chain.

So Tord you should not choose GPL if you do not agree with this.

Marc

[Tord Romstad]

The point is that the program he sends is ( and not "will be"as you emphasize) GPL- licensed because it is a derivative of a GPL program.

And his version being a GPL-program that he did not himself originally author, this version is not allowed to be restricted for distribution in any way as soon as he himself sends it to anyone.

No one who receives this version from Volker has to publish it for sure but volker should not say that he forbids redistribution : redistribution is always allowed in this case.

Moreover the whole sense of GPL is that redistribution of a modified program is not only always allowed but is even recommended.

And this cannot be changed by any intermediate in this kind of developping chain.

So Tord you should not choose GPL if you do not agree with this.

Think of it this way:

The GPL clearly allows you to modify the program any way you like as long as you keep your program private. You are not required to send it to anyone. Of course this is true even if you are not a single person, but a group of people who cooperate. In this case, anyone in the group would in principle be allowed to distribute the program without the permission of the rest of the group, but in case they all know and trust each other and agree that this is not desirable, it is not likely to happen.

Volker is evidently allowed to develop his own private derivative of Glaurung. He is also allowed to find one or several friends who help him with this project. That's all he wants to do, as far as I can understand. This is neither against the spirit nor the letter of the GPL, in my opinion. The GPL is about how you are allowed to distribute the program, not about what you do with it privately.

Tord

[Ryan Benitez]

Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.

I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

Tord

The point is that the program he sends is ( and not "will be"as you emphasize) GPL- licensed because it is a derivative of a GPL program.

And his version being a GPL-program that he did not himself originally author, this version is not allowed to be restricted for distribution in any way as soon as he himself sends it to anyone.

No one who receives this version from Volker has to publish it for sure but volker should not say that he forbids redistribution : redistribution is always allowed in this case.

Moreover the whole sense of GPL is that redistribution of a modified program is not only always allowed but is even recommended.

And this cannot be changed by any intermediate in this kind of developping chain.

So Tord you should not choose GPL if you do not agree with this.

Marc

The way I understand it is that he is not making it a part of the license to not redistribute, it is just a personal request. I suspect that Tord does agree with the GPL and it would be logical that GPL derivatives of his work would be flattering. I had wondered for a long time why people where not making Glaurung based derivatives.

[Dann Corbit]

I guess you are asking in the wrong place.
Why not ask in the "Tournaments and Matches" forum?

[Volker Annuss]

I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

100% correct

[bob]

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker

Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.

Robert what you say is true but I don't think this is what Volker wants to do. At this point Volker is only asking for testers, for a private version. So as far as I can see this is allowed by the GPL, as long as Volker and no tester releases it or otherwise make any derived work from Glaurung available without following all the GPL conditions? A private version could be tested by the CCRL and CEGT, but just not released unless following all the conditions of the GPL. Any free release or commercial version would have to include the source and licence, but I don't see a reason for Volker at this point to also provide this source code to the testers now. Should any of the testers make an executable public that they received from Volker, they would be in breach of of the GPL.

According to the GPL, _any_ distribution of a program, even done privately, must conform to the GPL. You can take a GPL program and modify it all you want, but you can not give it to a single soul unless you comply with the GPL, which means if you give it to one, you give it to all, and you can't hide the source or not release it.

The GPL really is a pretty straightforward and legally binding document that has to be followed. The main issue here is that he can not take a GPL program and then modify it and release it only to selected people. That is clearly not allowed.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

This part of Volkers'post I think won't hold up in court, the GPL overrides any such promise because it goes against the spirit of the GPL. If that is also what Robert and Marc are saying I agree with them.

Regards, Eelco

It sounds to me like he is sending source code with the engine. As far as I know the GPL does not force you must distribute to all. It would be ridiculous to demand every Toga based engine release to everyone every test beta that is sent out. It is possible that I am missing something here but I do not see the GPL violation.

That is simply wrong. Tord released his program to _everyone_. Someone can not take a GPL program, and then release it to just a selected few. It is plain and simple in the GPL.

I am in no means a GPL specialist but I think that you're absolutely right regarding the Toga's case....there are tons of private versions of Toga cerculating the computer chess community and I don't think that this is a violation to the GPL....
I am testing now a private DeepLearningToga which I recieved with the source code....Am I violating the GPL....don't think so....
Dr.D

You certainly are. If Toga comes from Fruit, and Fruit is GPL'ed, which it appears to be, then Toga _must_ be GPL'ed if it is distributed to anyone other than the person that worked on it. No exceptions. Absolutely none. This means that any version of Toga _must_ be distributed with source without any limit imposed...

I don't see why this is so hard to understand. If you take a freely distributed program and modify it, you have two options.

(1) keep it to yourself. You can not distribute it to another person or group, period. You can use it solely for your own purposes.

(2) Distribute it to the world, just as the original program you _copied_ was distributed.

It really is that simple, and that specific, and that clear.

[bob]

Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.

I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

Tord

There is more to it than that. Volker can _not_ impose that restriction in the first place, which was the point several of us are making. If he distributes it to one, he _must_ distribute it to all.

[bob]

I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

100% correct

And 100% wrong.

Let's turn this backward logic around. I take a GPL program, copy it, modify it, and then sell it. But I sell it only to friends, and I don't really charge them any money for the program, they simply have to make a "donation" to me to get a copy. Do you think the FSF would buy that? Not for a second. You can't go out and "solicit" testers, and then somehow claim that those people you "solicited" are now part of a private development group...

Nobody buys that...

[Ryan Benitez]

I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

100% correct

And 100% wrong.

Let's turn this backward logic around. I take a GPL program, copy it, modify it, and then sell it. But I sell it only to friends, and I don't really charge them any money for the program, they simply have to make a "donation" to me to get a copy. Do you think the FSF would buy that? Not for a second. You can't go out and "solicit" testers, and then somehow claim that those people you "solicited" are now part of a private development group...

Nobody buys that...

As long as the source code and GPL are attached it is perfectly acceptable for you to sell the program. It would be silly for someone to buy it and you would not be able to prevent them from redistributing it.