STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositioning

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12537
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by Dann Corbit »

I will give this one another going over at greater depth and time with multiple engines for further verification.
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12537
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by Dann Corbit »

This is 3 hour Rybka output. Other engines churning now

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 10800 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Rybka 3): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 00:02
      2	00:00	         443	28.352	+0.53	Ne6d4
      3	00:00	       1.132	72.448	+0.31	Ne6d4
      4	00:00	       1.444	92.416	+0.22	Ne6d4
      5	00:00	       2.644	84.608	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2
      6	00:00	       7.162	116.410	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Nh5f4
      6	00:00	       8.932	115.776	+0.10	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5
      7	00:00	      19.933	130.008	+0.02	Nh5f4 h2h4 b7b6 Bd3c4 Qb8b7
      7	00:00	      22.903	124.748	+0.04	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
      8	00:00	      31.155	127.610	 0.00	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Qc2d2
      8	00:00	      38.556	126.138	+0.01	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 e4xd5 Be7b4 Kc1b1
      9	00:00	      65.126	129.493	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Nc3d5 Be7d8
      9	00:00	      78.311	128.304	-0.05	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Qc2d2
     10	00:01	     114.232	127.007	-0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1
     10	00:01	     164.215	129.850	-0.11	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4e6 Kc1b1 Rc8c6 Nc3d5 Qb8d8
     11	00:01	     221.320	124.113	-0.15	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Rd1c1 Ra8a7 Nc3d5
     11	00:02	     278.671	126.995	-0.11	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
     12	00:02	     318.404	126.619	-0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1
     13	00:04	     463.479	120.702	-0.10	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1 Ra8c8
     14	00:08	     934.809	115.330	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     15	00:12	   1.418.731	113.286	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     16	00:23	   2.629.125	115.511	-0.15	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4f2 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Qe6d7
     17	00:43	   4.873.045	117.425	-0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2g2 Ra8c8 Qg2g4 g7g6 Rd1d2 f7f5
     18	01:44	  12.059.702	118.557	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     19	02:31	  17.360.643	117.516	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     20	06:59	  49.364.289	126.047	-0.29	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 f7f6 g5xf6 Nh5xf6 Qc2d3 Qb8e8 Qd3b5 Be7f8 Rh1f1 Qe8f7 Kb1a2 Rc6c8 Rd1c1 g7g6 Rf1d1 Rc8c6 Rc1c2
     21	17:56	 140.434.366	133.562	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     22	49:59	 410.550.987	140.148	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     23	1:35:24	 782.530.785	139.984	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     24	2:27:36	1.234.938.892	142.779	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Be7f8 Rh1h2 Qc7d8 Qc4d5 Qd8e7 Rh2b2 g7g6 Rb2d2
   6/4/2009 8:17:15 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 00:02

1 of 1 matching moves
6/4/2009 8:17:16 PM, Total time: 3:00:07 AM
Rated time: 00:02 = 2 Seconds
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swami
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by swami »

Hi Eelco, You're welcome and thanks for the report,
Eelco de Groot wrote: [D]rqr3k1/1p2bppp/3pn3/p3p1Pn/P3P3/1PNBBP2/1P1Q3P/2KR3R b - - bm Nd4; c0 "Nd4=10, Nef4=6, Nhf4=5"; id "STS: Knight Outposts/Repositioning/Centralization.100";
Eelco
My thoughts as a human player, I haven't checked it with engine since I'm not at home now.

Nd4 vs Nhf4:

This knight on d4 is placed in the center, attacks the b3 pawn. White Knight on c3 is pinned, so Bishop can't take the d4 knight. Knight on d4 also assists in pawn push (b5) and opens up everything in the queen side where the white king is castled.

Nhf4 takes away white Bishop's support for g5 pawn. That pawn on g5 is not worth it since taking it up would open up the g file and king will come under attack on that file later. Other purpose it just puts end to white's plan on the king side. But white hasn't started any attacks yet. This move would also make way for h pawn to go up h5 and g pawn to attempt break-open on g6.

It would help to see what latest Rybka 3 and Naum 4 think evaluation-wise on both moves after hours of analysis. I think maybe Dann has already done that. It's all left to reasoning for case against Nd4 and against Nhf4. If there are compelling and convincing reasons with many top engines preferring Nhf4 or doubting whichever move is best evaluation-wise, then maybe the position could be replaced with something else that's already in the reserve.
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bob
Posts: 20943
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by bob »

Dann Corbit wrote:This is 3 hour Rybka output. Other engines churning now

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 10800 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Rybka 3): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 00:02
      2	00:00	         443	28.352	+0.53	Ne6d4
      3	00:00	       1.132	72.448	+0.31	Ne6d4
      4	00:00	       1.444	92.416	+0.22	Ne6d4
      5	00:00	       2.644	84.608	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2
      6	00:00	       7.162	116.410	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Nh5f4
      6	00:00	       8.932	115.776	+0.10	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5
      7	00:00	      19.933	130.008	+0.02	Nh5f4 h2h4 b7b6 Bd3c4 Qb8b7
      7	00:00	      22.903	124.748	+0.04	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
      8	00:00	      31.155	127.610	 0.00	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Qc2d2
      8	00:00	      38.556	126.138	+0.01	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 e4xd5 Be7b4 Kc1b1
      9	00:00	      65.126	129.493	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Nc3d5 Be7d8
      9	00:00	      78.311	128.304	-0.05	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Qc2d2
     10	00:01	     114.232	127.007	-0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1
     10	00:01	     164.215	129.850	-0.11	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4e6 Kc1b1 Rc8c6 Nc3d5 Qb8d8
     11	00:01	     221.320	124.113	-0.15	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Rd1c1 Ra8a7 Nc3d5
     11	00:02	     278.671	126.995	-0.11	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
     12	00:02	     318.404	126.619	-0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1
     13	00:04	     463.479	120.702	-0.10	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1 Ra8c8
     14	00:08	     934.809	115.330	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     15	00:12	   1.418.731	113.286	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     16	00:23	   2.629.125	115.511	-0.15	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4f2 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Qe6d7
     17	00:43	   4.873.045	117.425	-0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2g2 Ra8c8 Qg2g4 g7g6 Rd1d2 f7f5
     18	01:44	  12.059.702	118.557	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     19	02:31	  17.360.643	117.516	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     20	06:59	  49.364.289	126.047	-0.29	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 f7f6 g5xf6 Nh5xf6 Qc2d3 Qb8e8 Qd3b5 Be7f8 Rh1f1 Qe8f7 Kb1a2 Rc6c8 Rd1c1 g7g6 Rf1d1 Rc8c6 Rc1c2
     21	17:56	 140.434.366	133.562	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     22	49:59	 410.550.987	140.148	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     23	1:35:24	 782.530.785	139.984	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     24	2:27:36	1.234.938.892	142.779	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Be7f8 Rh1h2 Qc7d8 Qc4d5 Qd8e7 Rh2b2 g7g6 Rb2d2
   6/4/2009 8:17:15 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 00:02

1 of 1 matching moves
6/4/2009 8:17:16 PM, Total time: 3:00:07 AM
Rated time: 00:02 = 2 Seconds
To me that looks bad. Score is steadily _dropping_....
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bob
Posts: 20943
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by bob »

Dann Corbit wrote:This is 3 hour Rybka output. Other engines churning now

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 10800 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Rybka 3): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 00:02
      2	00:00	         443	28.352	+0.53	Ne6d4
      3	00:00	       1.132	72.448	+0.31	Ne6d4
      4	00:00	       1.444	92.416	+0.22	Ne6d4
      5	00:00	       2.644	84.608	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2
      6	00:00	       7.162	116.410	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Nh5f4
      6	00:00	       8.932	115.776	+0.10	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5
      7	00:00	      19.933	130.008	+0.02	Nh5f4 h2h4 b7b6 Bd3c4 Qb8b7
      7	00:00	      22.903	124.748	+0.04	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
      8	00:00	      31.155	127.610	 0.00	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Qc2d2
      8	00:00	      38.556	126.138	+0.01	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 e4xd5 Be7b4 Kc1b1
      9	00:00	      65.126	129.493	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Nc3d5 Be7d8
      9	00:00	      78.311	128.304	-0.05	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Qc2d2
     10	00:01	     114.232	127.007	-0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1
     10	00:01	     164.215	129.850	-0.11	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4e6 Kc1b1 Rc8c6 Nc3d5 Qb8d8
     11	00:01	     221.320	124.113	-0.15	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Rd1c1 Ra8a7 Nc3d5
     11	00:02	     278.671	126.995	-0.11	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
     12	00:02	     318.404	126.619	-0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1
     13	00:04	     463.479	120.702	-0.10	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1 Ra8c8
     14	00:08	     934.809	115.330	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     15	00:12	   1.418.731	113.286	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     16	00:23	   2.629.125	115.511	-0.15	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4f2 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Qe6d7
     17	00:43	   4.873.045	117.425	-0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2g2 Ra8c8 Qg2g4 g7g6 Rd1d2 f7f5
     18	01:44	  12.059.702	118.557	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     19	02:31	  17.360.643	117.516	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     20	06:59	  49.364.289	126.047	-0.29	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 f7f6 g5xf6 Nh5xf6 Qc2d3 Qb8e8 Qd3b5 Be7f8 Rh1f1 Qe8f7 Kb1a2 Rc6c8 Rd1c1 g7g6 Rf1d1 Rc8c6 Rc1c2
     21	17:56	 140.434.366	133.562	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     22	49:59	 410.550.987	140.148	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     23	1:35:24	 782.530.785	139.984	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     24	2:27:36	1.234.938.892	142.779	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Be7f8 Rh1h2 Qc7d8 Qc4d5 Qd8e7 Rh2b2 g7g6 Rb2d2
   6/4/2009 8:17:15 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 00:02

1 of 1 matching moves
6/4/2009 8:17:16 PM, Total time: 3:00:07 AM
Rated time: 00:02 = 2 Seconds
To me that looks bad. Score is steadily _dropping_....
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pedrox
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:07 am
Location: Basque Country (Spain)

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by pedrox »

bob wrote:
swami wrote:Chapter 3 Of the Strategic Test Suite: Knight Outposts, Centralization and Repositioning is now available for download.

* Consists of carefully selected 100 questionairres on Knight OutPosts/Centralization/Repositioning

* All of the questions in this test suite are selected by me and thoroughly verified by Dann Corbitt. Each question has been analysed by top engines for hours.

* All the answers carry similar traits:
  • (1) A Knight move to take control of the center or posit itself in the center. (Centralization)
    (2) A Knight move to step back and reposition itself to lead the different (or better) path. (Repositioning)
    (3) A Knight move to take control of the opponent's weak squares (Outposts)
I initially selected about 190 problems and sent them to Dann, of which 100 has passed criteria. Dann made the final selection and done all that analysis with the help of the engines.

Recommended time: Anywhere between 10 seconds - 2 minutes for each test.

Download it here: STS 3.0
http://computerchessblogger.googlepages.com/sts

Feel free to report the results from your engine/ favourite engine, suggestions are welcome.

Special Thanks to Pedro Castro, Allard Siemelink, Zach Wegner for the testing and correcting mistakes throughout the process. And Thanks to those who reported bugs and tested out the V 1.0 of the test suite called "Undermining", and v2.0 called "Open Files and Diagonals".

And Extra Special Thanks to Ulysses for creating the beautiful logo!

Test Suite Released time: 3rd of June, 2009
Swaminathan and Dann Corbit.
I ran a quick test with the following details:

10 seconds per move.

I told Crafty that if it produced the same (correct) move for 5 consecutive iterations, to consider this one done and move on to the next position. That speeds things up quite a bit although I can run without it if it matters.

Here's the results:

Code: Select all

total positions searched..........         100
number right......................          96
number wrong......................           4
percentage right..................          96
percentage wrong..................           4
total nodes searched..............  1430919140
average search depth..............         8.1
nodes per second..................    15638460
total time........................        1:31
Crafty missed #13 (chose Nd5), #17 (liked Ncxe4), #57 (likes Qg6), #93 (likes Nd5)

Ran it again at 30 secs/position, but had to keep correct move for 6 iterations before stopping. Got 97 out of 100. Picked up #93...
I think it would be interesting to have results with the same time for Crafty 22.X. Crafty 23.X has improved greatly in the ELO, I do not know whether this is due to changes in the search or evaluation. Perhasps search and we can see as search affects the test.

Although the test is a test not tactical, because there is no material change, we can see that all engines have better results with more time. So my opinion is that it is not only important have a good evaluation, but also a good search.

It is very complicated to try to make the program better just by changing a little the evaluation, I tried to change the table pst, mobility and outpost for Knights. With any change, the results are very similar. You may need to change and adjust all evaluation and not only for knights. And I think the search is also crucial.

The same applies to the test "open files", I can be more aggressive with the bonus and get 2 or 3 positions more in the test, but that does not change much the results, again a good search is important.

Pedro
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12537
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by Dann Corbit »

Eelco de Groot wrote:Hello Swami and Dann,

Thanks for the testsuite! I was just messing with Bishop and Knight mobility, so this test comes at the right time :shock:

Results with Ancalagon build 134:

Code: Select all

Engine: Ancalagon 1.3 WS180 Build 134 (256 MB)
by Romstad, Costalba, Kiiski, de Groot
Right until now: 70 of 100  ;  6:49m
10 seconds per position

     1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  |  2   0   0   2   8   -   1   0   -   2   4   0   -   2   0   -   0   -   5   0
  |  -   -   0   1   3   -   0   0   0   1   1   0   0   -   1   0   0   8   0   0
  |  -   0   0   0   -   0   2   0   3   0   1   1   -   0   6   -   3   -   0   5
  |  0   -   -   0   -   1   3   -   1   0   1   3   -   7   -   -   -   0   0   1
  |  0   3   -   -   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   -   0   -   -   1   -   -   0   -

   1 sec ->  40/100
   2 sec ->  52/100
   3 sec ->  57/100
   4 sec ->  63/100
   5 sec ->  64/100
   6 sec ->  66/100
   7 sec ->  67/100
   8 sec ->  68/100
   9 sec ->  70/100
  10 sec ->  70/100
  n/s: 681.287  
  TotTime: 16:57m    SolTime: 6:49m
I have some doubts about the last position, position No. 100? More or less at random I let this one run a little longer, because Ancalagon switched at the last moment from 1. Nd4 to 1. Nhf4, which you only have as third choice. First I tried to improve the analysis as the switch seemed more a slight instability but then this move was chosen for six consecutive plies, before 1.Nd4 takes over again with a minimal difference. Maybe 1. Nhf4 is a dangerous move and only Rybka 3 sees it and it could have something to do with King Safety if the Knight does not block h4 anymore, but then I would expect other programs to see that on deeper plies as well...

[D]rqr3k1/1p2bppp/3pn3/p3p1Pn/P3P3/1PNBBP2/1P1Q3P/2KR3R b - - bm Nd4; c0 "Nd4=10, Nef4=6, Nhf4=5"; id "STS: Knight Outposts/Repositioning/Centralization.100";


rqr3k1/1p2bppp/3pn3/p3p1Pn/P3P3/1PNBBP2/1P1Q3P/2KR3R b - -

Engine: Ancalagon 1.3 WS180 Build 134 (Athlon 2009 MHz, 256 MB)
by Romstad, Costalba, Kiiski, de Groot

2.00 0:00 +1.52 1...Nd4 2.Kb1 Nxb3 (3.351) 14

3.00 0:00 +1.52 1...Nd4 2.Kb1 Nxb3 (32.652) 116

4.00 0:00 +1.25 1...Nd4 2.Kb1 (49.591) 158

5.00 0:00 +0.82 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Nxc2 3.Qxc2 b6 4.Rhg1 Qb7 (139.008) 296

6.00 0:00 +0.82 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Nxc2 3.Qxc2 b6 4.Rhg1 Qb7 (290.049) 403

7.00 0:01 +0.39 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 (594.921) 494

8.01 0:02 +0.39 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Nxc2 3.Qxc2 b6 4.h4 Ra7
5.Kb1 Rac7 (1.378.947) 569

9.01 0:04 +0.29 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Nxc2 3.Kxc2 b5 4.Kb1 bxa4
5.bxa4 Ra6 6.h4 (3.000.435) 613

9.02 0:05 +0.29 1...Nhf4 (3.175.655) 621

10.01 0:08 +0.17 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Rc1 Qa8 7.Rxc6 bxc6 (5.742.130) 676

11.01 0:17 +0.15 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Rc1 Qa8 7.Rc3 (12.334.464) 691

12.01 0:38 0.00 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Rc1 Qa8 7.Rc3 b6 (27.775.179) 723

12.02 0:42 0.00 1...Nd4 (30.811.698) 724

13.01 1:30 -0.09 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Bd8 3.Bxd4 exd4 4.Nb5 d5
5.Kb1 dxe4 6.Bxe4 Qe5 7.Qxd4 Qxd4
8.Nxd4 Bxg5 9.Bxb7 (65.024.750) 717

14.01 3:35 -0.17 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Bd8 3.Bxd4 exd4 4.Nb5 d3
5.Qxd3 Bxg5+ 6.Kb1 Nf4 7.Qxd6 Bf6
8.Rhe1 Rd8 9.Qxb8 Raxb8 10.Rxd8+ Rxd8
11.e5 (154.085.660) 715

14.02 3:53 -0.17 1...Nhf4 (166.871.375) 715

15.01 7:49 -0.11 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nc5 3.Bc2 Nfd3+ 4.Kb1 Nb4
5.Nd5 Nxd5 6.Qxd5 b5 7.g6 hxg6 8.h5 gxh5
9.Rxh5 bxa4 10.bxa4 (326.864.061) 696

16.01 14:18 -0.25 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Bd8
5.Nd5 Rac6 6.Rc1 Rxc1+ 7.Rxc1 Rc6
8.Bf2 Qc8 9.Rc3 f6 10.gxf6 Bxf6
11.Rxc6 Qxc6 (574.508.523) 669

17.01 33:24 -0.31 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Bd8
5.Nd5 Rac6 6.Rc1 Rxc1+ 7.Rxc1 Rxc1+
8.Kxc1 Qc8+ 9.Kd2 Qc6 10.Bb6 Qe8
11.Bf2 Qc6 12.Qc4 (1.219.401.813) 608

18.01 79:49 -0.33 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Rc1 Rxc1+ 7.Rxc1 Rxc1+
8.Kxc1 Qc8+ 9.Qc3 Qd7 10.Bf2 b5
11.axb5 Qxb5 12.Qc4 Qd7 13.Kc2 (2.616.443.704) 546

19.01 209:55 -0.49 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Rc6 4.Kb1 Qc8
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Rc1 Qd7 7.Rc3 Rac8
8.Rhc1 Kh8 9.Qb5 Nd4 10.Bxd4 exd4
11.Rc4 Kg8 (6.631.363.799) 526

19.05 264:58 -0.48 1...Nd4 (8.545.491.341) 537


Rybka 2.2n2 also makes little distinction between these two moves:


rqr3k1/1p2bppp/3pn3/p3p1Pn/P3P3/1PNBBP2/1P1Q3P/2KR3R b - -

Engine: Rybka 2.2n2 mp 32-bit PVtips5menbases (64 MB)
by Vasik Rajlich

16 3:05 -0.10 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Rc6 3.Kb1 Qd8 4.Bxd4 exd4
5.Qxd4 Bxg5 6.e5 Bf4 7.exd6 Rxd6 8.Qe4 g6
9.Nd5 Bg5 10.Rhg1 (7.350.481) 40

16 3:40 -0.18 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Qb5 Qa8 7.b4 Nc7 8.Nxc7 Bxc7
9.Rc1 axb4 (8.861.845) 41
_____________________________________________________________

17 6:39 -0.16 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Rc6 3.Kb1 Nxc2 4.Qxc2 Qf8
5.h4 Bd8 6.Qd2 f5 7.Nb5 f4
8.Bf2 Raa6 (16.584.151) 42

17 7:57 -0.19 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Nd5 Bd8 6.Qb5 Qa8 7.Bb6 Kh8
8.Rc1 Qb8 9.Rc4 Bxb6 (19.837.347) 42
_____________________________________________________________

18 11:37 -0.14 1...Nd4 2.Bc2 Rc6 3.Kb1 Nxc2 4.Qxc2 Qf8
5.Qd3 f6 6.gxf6 Bxf6 7.Nd5 Bd8
8.Rhg1 Qf7 9.Rc1 (29.504.866) 43

18 14:42 -0.21 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qe2 Kf8 6.Nd5 Bd8 7.Qb5 Qa8 8.b4 axb4 (37.295.849) 43
_____________________________________________________________

19 34:08 -0.30 1...Nd4 2.Qf2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 Nc5 4.Bb5 b6
5.Nd5 Qb7 6.Rhg1 g6 7.Rg2 Kh8
8.Qe1 (87.739.800) 43

19 44:02 -0.31 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Rhg1 Qa8 6.h5 Qa6 7.Qd2 Bd8
8.g6 hxg6 (113.305.500) 43
_____________________________________________________________

20 66:13 -0.25 1...Nd4 2.Qf2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 Nc5 4.Bb5 b6
5.Nd5 Qb7 6.Rhg1 g6 7.Rg2 Kh8 8.Qe1 (168.700.155) 43

20 75:00 -0.26 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qd2 b6 6.h5 Qb7 7.h6 g6 8.Rhg1 Nc5
9.Ka2 Ne6 (190.667.022) 43
_____________________________________________________________

21 127:28 -0.27 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qd2 Qa8 6.h5 Qa6 7.Rhg1 Bd8 8.h6 Bb6
9.Rh1 gxh6 (319.500.612) 42

21 107:48 -0.28 1...Nd4 2.Qf2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 Nc5 4.Bb5 b6
5.Nd5 Qb7 6.Rhg1 g6 7.Rg2 Bd8 8.Qh4 (269.734.443) 42


Eelco
Here is Naum Output:

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 30 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Naum

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Naum): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 25:59
     2/11	00:00	         232	232.000	+0.43	Nh5f4 h2h4
     3/10	00:00	         559	559.000	+0.43	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+
     4/10	00:00	       1.425	712.500	+0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xf3 Qd2g2
     5/11	00:00	       2.497	1.248.500	+0.44	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2c2 Nb3d4
     6/14	00:00	       4.421	1.105.250	+0.50	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2f2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4
     7/12	00:00	       6.275	1.255.000	+0.49	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2f2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 e5xf4
     8/16	00:00	      10.898	1.210.888	+0.49	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2f2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 e5xf4 Qf2b6
     9/25	00:00	      77.615	2.042.500	+0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Ra8a6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qd2xd4 Be7xg5
    10/26	00:00	     192.874	2.410.925	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qd2xd4 Be7xg5 Rh1g1
    11/23	00:00	     293.459	2.445.491	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8d8 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qd2xd4 Be7xg5 Rh1g1 Qd8f6
    12/34	00:01	   2.265.495	2.677.890	-0.20	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 e5xf4 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qg2g4 Nb3d4 Kb1a2
    13/25	00:01	   2.347.973	2.692.629	-0.20	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 e5xf4 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qg2g4 Nb3d4 Kb1a2 Nd4e6
    14/33	00:01	   4.389.094	2.914.405	-0.24	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Ne6c5 Qd3b5 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7c6 Qb5c4 Qc6e8 Nc3d5 Ra8a6 Rd1c1
    15/40	00:05	  14.835.684	3.086.266	-0.45	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Ne6c5 Qd3b5 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7c6 Be3xc5 Qc6xc5 Qb5xb7 Ra8a7 Qb7b5 Qc5f2
    15/40	00:05	  15.298.725	3.080.693	-0.44	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 e5xf4 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qg2g4 Qb8a7 Kb1a2 Nb3d4 Qg4xf4 Nd4c6
    16/48	00:13	  41.823.615	3.174.949	-0.50	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qd3b5 Qb8a8 b3b4 Kg8f8 Rd1c1 Rc6xc1+ Rh1xc1
    17/44	00:19	  61.219.040	3.240.474	-0.54	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rd1c1 Ra8b8 Rc1c3 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 b7b5 a4xb5 Rb8xb5
    18/46	00:28	  92.858.508	3.336.873	-0.53	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rd1c1 Ra8b8 Rc1c3 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 b7b5 a4xb5 Rb8xb5 Qd3c4
    19/52	00:45	 156.105.022	3.436.166	-0.54	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rd1c1 Rc8c6 Rc1c3 Ra8c8 Rh1c1 g7g6 Rc1d1 Ne6c5 Qd3b5 Qd7h3
    20/54	01:53	 392.267.435	3.473.668	-0.59	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rd1c1 Rc8c6 Rc1c3 Ra8c8 Rh1c1 Kg8f8 Rc1d1 Rc6xc3 b2xc3 Ne6c5 Be3xc5
    21/55	03:32	 745.085.825	3.511.921	-0.60	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Qd3d5 Qd7c6 Qd5d2 Ne6c5 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Be3xc5 Qc6xc5 Rd1c1 Qc5a7 Nd5e3 Qa7b6 Ne3f5 Qb6xb3
    22/53	07:12	1.524.597.072	3.526.180	-0.67	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Qd3d5 Qd7e8 Nc3b5 Rc8c6 Nb5a7 Rc6c7 Rd1c1 Qe8b8 Na7b5 Rc7xc1+ Rh1xc1 Ra8a6 Rc1c2 Be7d8 Rc2c4
    23/62	19:55	4.240.291,561	3.548.473	-0.76	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Rd1g1 b7b6 h4h5 Qb8b7 h5h6 g7g6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rg1g2 Ne6c5 Qd3b5 Nc5e6 Rh1d1 Ne6c7 Nd5xc7 Qb7xc7
    23/62	25:59	5.513.021,881	3.535.747	-0.68	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 b7b6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Bd3b5 Nb3c5 Qg2g4 g7g6 Bb5d7 Nc5xd7 Qg4xd7 Nh5g7 Rd1c1 Ng7e6 h2h4 Rc8xc1+ Rh1xc1 Ne6c5 Qd7c6 Ra8a7
    24/58	35:13	7.536.756,106	3.567.209	-0.60	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 b7b6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Bd3b5 Nb3c5 Qg2g4 g7g6 h2h4 Qb8b7 Rh1f1 Nc5e6 Rd1d2 Ne6c5 Rf1d1 Nc5e6 Rd2h2 Kg8h8 Rh2h1
    25/62	1:01:40	13.324.543,353	3.600.979	-0.60	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 b7b6 Bd3b5 Nb3c5 Rd1c1 g7g6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 h2h4 Nc5b3 Rc1d1 Qb8b7 Qg2g4 Nb3c5 Rh1f1 Nc5e6 Rd1d2 Ra8b8 Rf1h1 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
    26/61	1:33:47	20.438.581,681	3.632.253	-0.60	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 b7b6 Bd3b5 Nb3c5 Rd1c1 g7g6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 h2h4 Nc5b3 Rc1d1 Qb8b7 Qg2g4
    27/62	2:23:46	31.405.684,414	3.640.797	-0.60	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 b7b6 Bd3b5 Nb3c5 Rd1c1 g7g6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 h2h4 Nc5b3 Rc1d1 Qb8b7 Qg2g4
   6/5/2009 8:17:54 AM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 25:59
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12537
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by Dann Corbit »

bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:This is 3 hour Rybka output. Other engines churning now

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 10800 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Rybka 3): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 00:02
      2	00:00	         443	28.352	+0.53	Ne6d4
      3	00:00	       1.132	72.448	+0.31	Ne6d4
      4	00:00	       1.444	92.416	+0.22	Ne6d4
      5	00:00	       2.644	84.608	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2
      6	00:00	       7.162	116.410	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Nh5f4
      6	00:00	       8.932	115.776	+0.10	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5
      7	00:00	      19.933	130.008	+0.02	Nh5f4 h2h4 b7b6 Bd3c4 Qb8b7
      7	00:00	      22.903	124.748	+0.04	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
      8	00:00	      31.155	127.610	 0.00	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Qc2d2
      8	00:00	      38.556	126.138	+0.01	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 e4xd5 Be7b4 Kc1b1
      9	00:00	      65.126	129.493	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Nc3d5 Be7d8
      9	00:00	      78.311	128.304	-0.05	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Qc2d2
     10	00:01	     114.232	127.007	-0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1
     10	00:01	     164.215	129.850	-0.11	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4e6 Kc1b1 Rc8c6 Nc3d5 Qb8d8
     11	00:01	     221.320	124.113	-0.15	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Rd1c1 Ra8a7 Nc3d5
     11	00:02	     278.671	126.995	-0.11	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
     12	00:02	     318.404	126.619	-0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1
     13	00:04	     463.479	120.702	-0.10	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1 Ra8c8
     14	00:08	     934.809	115.330	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     15	00:12	   1.418.731	113.286	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     16	00:23	   2.629.125	115.511	-0.15	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4f2 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Qe6d7
     17	00:43	   4.873.045	117.425	-0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2g2 Ra8c8 Qg2g4 g7g6 Rd1d2 f7f5
     18	01:44	  12.059.702	118.557	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     19	02:31	  17.360.643	117.516	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     20	06:59	  49.364.289	126.047	-0.29	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 f7f6 g5xf6 Nh5xf6 Qc2d3 Qb8e8 Qd3b5 Be7f8 Rh1f1 Qe8f7 Kb1a2 Rc6c8 Rd1c1 g7g6 Rf1d1 Rc8c6 Rc1c2
     21	17:56	 140.434.366	133.562	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     22	49:59	 410.550.987	140.148	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     23	1:35:24	 782.530.785	139.984	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     24	2:27:36	1.234.938.892	142.779	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Be7f8 Rh1h2 Qc7d8 Qc4d5 Qd8e7 Rh2b2 g7g6 Rb2d2
   6/4/2009 8:17:15 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 00:02

1 of 1 matching moves
6/4/2009 8:17:16 PM, Total time: 3:00:07 AM
Rated time: 00:02 = 2 Seconds
To me that looks bad. Score is steadily _dropping_....
These test sets are not tactical problems that will show a win. They are intended to be strategic moves where the best choice has long term implications. Several of the problems will have small negative scores after a very long think.
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User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4561
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Dann Corbit wrote:This is 3 hour Rybka output. Other engines churning now

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 10800 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Rybka 3): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 00:02
      2	00:00	         443	28.352	+0.53	Ne6d4
      3	00:00	       1.132	72.448	+0.31	Ne6d4
      4	00:00	       1.444	92.416	+0.22	Ne6d4
      5	00:00	       2.644	84.608	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2
      6	00:00	       7.162	116.410	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Nh5f4
      6	00:00	       8.932	115.776	+0.10	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5
      7	00:00	      19.933	130.008	+0.02	Nh5f4 h2h4 b7b6 Bd3c4 Qb8b7
      7	00:00	      22.903	124.748	+0.04	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
      8	00:00	      31.155	127.610	 0.00	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Qc2d2
      8	00:00	      38.556	126.138	+0.01	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 e4xd5 Be7b4 Kc1b1
      9	00:00	      65.126	129.493	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Nc3d5 Be7d8
      9	00:00	      78.311	128.304	-0.05	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Qc2d2
     10	00:01	     114.232	127.007	-0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1
     10	00:01	     164.215	129.850	-0.11	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4e6 Kc1b1 Rc8c6 Nc3d5 Qb8d8
     11	00:01	     221.320	124.113	-0.15	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Rd1c1 Ra8a7 Nc3d5
     11	00:02	     278.671	126.995	-0.11	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
     12	00:02	     318.404	126.619	-0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1
     13	00:04	     463.479	120.702	-0.10	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1 Ra8c8
     14	00:08	     934.809	115.330	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     15	00:12	   1.418.731	113.286	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     16	00:23	   2.629.125	115.511	-0.15	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4f2 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Qe6d7
     17	00:43	   4.873.045	117.425	-0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2g2 Ra8c8 Qg2g4 g7g6 Rd1d2 f7f5
     18	01:44	  12.059.702	118.557	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     19	02:31	  17.360.643	117.516	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     20	06:59	  49.364.289	126.047	-0.29	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 f7f6 g5xf6 Nh5xf6 Qc2d3 Qb8e8 Qd3b5 Be7f8 Rh1f1 Qe8f7 Kb1a2 Rc6c8 Rd1c1 g7g6 Rf1d1 Rc8c6 Rc1c2
     21	17:56	 140.434.366	133.562	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     22	49:59	 410.550.987	140.148	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     23	1:35:24	 782.530.785	139.984	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     24	2:27:36	1.234.938.892	142.779	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Be7f8 Rh1h2 Qc7d8 Qc4d5 Qd8e7 Rh2b2 g7g6 Rb2d2
   6/4/2009 8:17:15 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 00:02

1 of 1 matching moves
6/4/2009 8:17:16 PM, Total time: 3:00:07 AM
Rated time: 00:02 = 2 Seconds
Thanks Dann and Swami for the analysis and comments,

As Robert is pointing out, it could be that the position is lost in the long run, since the eval is dropping pretty slowly, also for Rybka 2.2n2. This could be a good testmove for testing how (in-)efficient a program is in detecting this (i.e. that the position is really lost in spite of small negative evaluation). That does not necessarily disqualify Nd4 as a testmove unless you specifically don't want a losing move included, Nd4 is probably 'best move' but only as best defence. The difference with Nhf4 is small I think.

I have the last two plies from Rybka 2.2n2, at 50% CPU and with only 64 Mb transposition tables this was about the maximum depth possible on my single core 'main-frame':


23 358:20 -0.33 1...Nd4 2.Qf2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 Nc5 4.Bb5 b6
5.Nd5 Qb7 6.Rhg1 g6 7.Qh4 Kh8 8.Rg2 Bd8 (1.014.139.668) 48

23 507:39 -0.35 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qd2 b6 6.h5 Qa7 7.h6 g6 8.Nd5 Bd8 (1.396.739.907) 46
_____________________________________________________________

24 1153:49-0.34 1...Nd4 2.Qg2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 b6 4.Nd5 Bd8
5.Bb5 Qb7 6.Qg4 g6 7.Bd7 Rcb8 8.Nc3 (3.187.644.938) 47

24 1326:14-0.38 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qd2 b6 6.h5 Qb7 7.Rhg1 Qd7 8.Nd5 Qd8
9.h6 (3.910.586.276) 50

Only thing I'm not sure about if a good human player does have time to mount a King-attack after either of those moves but maybe especially after Nhf4 just by pushing pawns on the Kingside, and all programs just don't see that. Well Rybka 2.2n2 does play h4-h5-h6, it's not as if Rybka sees nothing :P

Reqards, Eelco
These test sets are not tactical problems that will show a win. They are intended to be strategic moves where the best choice has long term implications. Several of the problems will have small negative scores after a very long think.
Not sure if you can always avoid that, chess is after all 99% tactics in my opinion at least it is so it figures it is very hard to find positions with "pure" strategic or even positional motives alone. As long as a motive plays a role and could help deciding a choice for a particular move, that should be allowed I think. Otherwise you run the danger of having much less realistic positions. In 'My System' I believe I read that many of the positions from Nimzovich would also not hold up under modern scrutiny basically because some of the tactics in the position are not working in practice...
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12537
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: STS (v3.0) - Knight Outposts/Centralization/Repositionin

Post by Dann Corbit »

Eelco de Groot wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:This is 3 hour Rybka output. Other engines churning now

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 10800 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Rybka 3): Ne6-d4
    identical moves! Found in: 00:02
      2	00:00	         443	28.352	+0.53	Ne6d4
      3	00:00	       1.132	72.448	+0.31	Ne6d4
      4	00:00	       1.444	92.416	+0.22	Ne6d4
      5	00:00	       2.644	84.608	+0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2
      6	00:00	       7.162	116.410	+0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Nh5f4
      6	00:00	       8.932	115.776	+0.10	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5
      7	00:00	      19.933	130.008	+0.02	Nh5f4 h2h4 b7b6 Bd3c4 Qb8b7
      7	00:00	      22.903	124.748	+0.04	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
      8	00:00	      31.155	127.610	 0.00	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Ra8a6 Kc1b1 Ra6c6 Qc2d2
      8	00:00	      38.556	126.138	+0.01	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 e4xd5 Be7b4 Kc1b1
      9	00:00	      65.126	129.493	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Nc3d5 Be7d8
      9	00:00	      78.311	128.304	-0.05	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8e8 Qc2d2
     10	00:01	     114.232	127.007	-0.12	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1
     10	00:01	     164.215	129.850	-0.11	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4e6 Kc1b1 Rc8c6 Nc3d5 Qb8d8
     11	00:01	     221.320	124.113	-0.15	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Rd1c1 Ra8a7 Nc3d5
     11	00:02	     278.671	126.995	-0.11	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2
     12	00:02	     318.404	126.619	-0.08	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1
     13	00:04	     463.479	120.702	-0.10	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8h3 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Rh1g1 Ra8c8
     14	00:08	     934.809	115.330	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     15	00:12	   1.418.731	113.286	-0.16	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Ra8c8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4g4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
     16	00:23	   2.629.125	115.511	-0.15	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4f2 Ra8c8 Rd1c1 Qe6d7
     17	00:43	   4.873.045	117.425	-0.19	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 Qc2f2 Qc8e6 Nc3d5 Be7d8 Qf2g2 Ra8c8 Qg2g4 g7g6 Rd1d2 f7f5
     18	01:44	  12.059.702	118.557	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     19	02:31	  17.360.643	117.516	-0.22	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 Qb8c8 h2h4 Qc8e6 Rd1d5 b7b6 Rh1d1 Ra8c8 Qc2f2 f7f6 Nc3b5 Qe6f7
     20	06:59	  49.364.289	126.047	-0.29	Ne6d4 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Rc8c6 Kc1b1 f7f6 g5xf6 Nh5xf6 Qc2d3 Qb8e8 Qd3b5 Be7f8 Rh1f1 Qe8f7 Kb1a2 Rc6c8 Rd1c1 g7g6 Rf1d1 Rc8c6 Rc1c2
     21	17:56	 140.434.366	133.562	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     22	49:59	 410.550.987	140.148	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     23	1:35:24	 782.530.785	139.984	-0.43	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Qc7d8 e4e5 Nc5e6 Qc4d5 d6xe5 Qd5xd8+ Rc8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Be7xd8 Kb1c2 Ne6c5 Rh1d1
     24	2:27:36	1.234.938.892	142.779	-0.42	Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nd4xb3 Qd2g2 Nh5f4 Be3xf4 Rc8xc3 b2xc3 e5xf4 Bd3b5 Qb8c7 Qg2a2 Nb3c5 h2h4 Ra8c8 Qa2c4 Be7f8 Rh1h2 Qc7d8 Qc4d5 Qd8e7 Rh2b2 g7g6 Rb2d2
   6/4/2009 8:17:15 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 00:02

1 of 1 matching moves
6/4/2009 8:17:16 PM, Total time: 3:00:07 AM
Rated time: 00:02 = 2 Seconds
Thanks Dann and Swami for the analysis and comments,

As Robert is pointing out, it could be that the position is lost in the long run, since the eval is dropping pretty slowly, also for Rybka 2.2n2. This could be a good testmove for testing how (in-)efficient a program is in detecting this (i.e. that the position is really lost in spite of small negative evaluation). That does not necessarily disqualify Nd4 as a testmove unless you specifically don't want a losing move included, Nd4 is probably 'best move' but only as best defence. The difference with Nhf4 is small I think.

I have the last two plies from Rybka 2.2n2, at 50% CPU and with only 64 Mb transposition tables this was about the maximum depth possible on my single core 'main-frame':


23 358:20 -0.33 1...Nd4 2.Qf2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 Nc5 4.Bb5 b6
5.Nd5 Qb7 6.Rhg1 g6 7.Qh4 Kh8 8.Rg2 Bd8 (1.014.139.668) 48

23 507:39 -0.35 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qd2 b6 6.h5 Qa7 7.h6 g6 8.Nd5 Bd8 (1.396.739.907) 46
_____________________________________________________________

24 1153:49-0.34 1...Nd4 2.Qg2 Nxb3+ 3.Kb1 b6 4.Nd5 Bd8
5.Bb5 Qb7 6.Qg4 g6 7.Bd7 Rcb8 8.Nc3 (3.187.644.938) 47

24 1326:14-0.38 1...Nhf4 2.h4 Nxd3+ 3.Qxd3 Ra6 4.Kb1 Rac6
5.Qd2 b6 6.h5 Qb7 7.Rhg1 Qd7 8.Nd5 Qd8
9.h6 (3.910.586.276) 50

Only thing I'm not sure about if a good human player does have time to mount a King-attack after either of those moves but maybe especially after Nhf4 just by pushing pawns on the Kingside, and all programs just don't see that. Well Rybka 2.2n2 does play h4-h5-h6, it's not as if Rybka sees nothing :P

Reqards, Eelco
These test sets are not tactical problems that will show a win. They are intended to be strategic moves where the best choice has long term implications. Several of the problems will have small negative scores after a very long think.
Not sure if you can always avoid that, chess is after all 99% tactics in my opinion at least it is so it figures it is very hard to find positions with "pure" strategic or even positional motives alone. As long as a motive plays a role and could help deciding a choice for a particular move, that should be allowed I think. Otherwise you run the danger of having much less realistic positions. In 'My System' I believe I read that many of the positions from Nimzovich would also not hold up under modern scrutiny basically because some of the tactics in the position are not working in practice...
This series of test sets is intended to be different than previous test sets. Basically, except for LCT II, all previous EPD test sets that I am familiar with are tactical in nature. The aim of this test set is to encourage long term thinking rather than tactical shots (which is why we verify the positions with many hours of CPU time each). The positions are taken from games where both players were formidable and the chosen move was found in a game that was won by the player making the move. So the moves definitely have winning chances. I do not know what game Swami took the move from. I have only one game with that position, the key move was chosen in that game, and the player making that move won the game.

At any rate, I do agree that the alternative Nef4 should be upgraded from 6 to 9 (Hiarcs, for instance, chose that move):

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\tmp\question.epd   
6/4/2009 5:17:08 PM Level: 30 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Hiarcs

1) Ne6d4; pv Ne6d4 Bd3c 
    Searching move: Ne6-d4, Ne6-d4, Bd3-c2
    Best move (Hiarcs): Nh5-f4
    Not found in: 3:00:00
    10/23	00:00	     639.774	1.078.868	-0.07	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3
    11/23-	00:01	   1.095.080	1.114.018	-0.32	Nh5f4
    11/23	00:01	   1.436.432	1.136.417	-0.62	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 e4xd5 Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Nf4xd3 Qd2xd3
    11/26	00:01	   1.527.375	1.138.133	-0.61	d6d5
    11/26	00:01	   1.710.004	1.141.524	-0.31	d6d5 e4xd5 Ne6d4 Kc1b1 Qb8d6 Bd3c2 Nd4xc2 Qd2xc2 Qd6b4 Qc2e4 Qb4xb3 d5d6 Rc8c4 Qe4xe5
    12/31	00:03	   3.549.254	1.172.531	-0.37	d6d5 e4xd5 Ne6d4 Qd2f2 Be7c5 Kc1b1 Qb8d6 Qf2h4 g7g6 Qh4e4 Nh5f4 Be3xd4 e5xd4
    13/32	00:06	   7.248.251	1.219.423	-0.61	d6d5 e4xd5 Ne6d4 Qd2f2 Qb8d6 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qf2xd4
    13/32	00:06	   7.299.344	1.218.384	-0.60	Nh5f4
    13/32	00:06	   8.067.186	1.225.271	-0.60	Nh5f4 h2h4 d6d5 e4xd5
    14/35	00:18	  22.400.836	1.202.600	-0.42	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nf4d3+ Kc1b1 Nd3b4 h4h5 Nb4xc2 Qd2xc2 Qb8c7 Nc3d5 Qc7d8 Qc2d2 Nc5xb3 Nd5xe7+ Qd8xe7 Qd2xd6 Qe7xd6
    15/35-	00:28	  34.238.945	1.215.914	-0.67	Nh5f4
    15/35	00:29	  35.989.225	1.218.033	-0.67	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6
    16/38	01:09	  83.363.024	1.204.894	-0.71	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 b7b6 Nc3d5 Nf4xd5 e4xd5 Ne6c5 f3f4 e5e4 f4f5 Qb8b7 Qd2d4 b6b5
    17/40	02:31	 179.092.253	1.185.962	-0.68	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 b7b5 a4xb5 Nf4d3+ Kc1b1 Nd3b4 Qd2f2 Nc5e6 Bc2d3 Qb8b7 Bd3c4 Ra8b8 Nc3d5 Nb4xd5 Rd1xd5
    18/41	06:04	 428.778.763	1.177.565	-0.76	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Ne6c5 Qd3b5 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7c6 Qb5c4 Be7d8 Rd1c1
    19/41	14:05	 992.640.180	1.175.009	-0.81	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Ne6c5 Qd3b5 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7c6 Be3xc5 Qc6xb5 Nc3xb5 d6xc5 Rd1d7 Kg8f8 Rd7xb7 Rc8d8 Rh1f1 Rd8d2 Nb5c7 Ra8d8 Nc7d5
    20/41	31:07	2.197.448,038	1.176.673	-0.82	Nh5f4 h2h4 Ne6c5 Bd3c2 Nc5e6 Kc1b1 Qb8c7 Bc2d3
    21/41	1:06:44	4.712.169,549	1.176.906	-0.82	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3
    22/41	2:30:35	10.637.250,230	1.177.293	-0.86	Nh5f4 h2h4 Nf4xd3+ Qd2xd3 Qb8c7 Kc1b1 Qc7d7 Rh1f1 Qd7e8 Nc3b5 Ra8a6 Qd3d5 Rc8c6 f3f4 e5xf4 Be3xf4 Ne6xf4 Rf1xf4
   6/4/2009 11:17:25 PM, Time for this analysis: 03:00:00, Rated time: 3:00:00
Here is a game with the key position (the only one I could find) and the key move was chosen by black, which also won the game:

Code: Select all

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.03.05"]
[Round "1.109"]
[White "Hiarcs 11.1 4CPU"]
[Black "Zappa Mexico II 64-bit 4CPU"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2985"]
[ECO "B90q"]
[Variation "Sicilian: Najdorf, 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.f3 Be7 9.Qd2 O-O"]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be7 8.f3 Be6
9.Qd2 O-O 10.O-O-O a5 11.Bb5 Na6 12.Qe2 Qb8 13.g4 Nc7 14.g5 Nh5 15.a4 Rc8 
16.Bd3 Bxb3 17.cxb3 Ne6 18.Qd2 Nd4 19.Kb1 Nxb3 20.Qg2 Rxc3 21.bxc3 Qc7 22.
Qb2 Nc5 23.Qb5 Rc8 24.h4 Nf4 25.Bf1 Nce6 26.c4 Rb8 27.Qb6 Qd7 28.Qxa5 b6 
29.Qb5 Qa7 30.Kc2 Nc5 31.Bxf4 exf4 32.Bh3 g6 33.Bg4 Bf8 34.h5 Ra8 35.Ra1 
Bg7 36.hxg6 fxg6 37.Ra3 Qf7 38.Kd2 Ra6 39.Bc8 Ra8 40.Bh3 Qe7 41.Qc6 Ra7 
42.Qd5+ Kf8 43.Rb1 Qc7 44.Kc2 Be5 45.Qd2 Kg7 46.Qb4 Qf7 47.Bf1 Qe7 48.Qxb6
Rb7 49.Qa5 Rxb1 50.Kxb1 Qxg5 51.Qe1 Qd8 52.Qb4 Qh4 53.Qd2 Qe7 54.a5 Qb7+ 
55.Ka2 h5 56.Qc1 Qd7 57.Qb1 h4 58.Qb5 Qe6 59.Rb3 h3 60.Rb1 Qc8 61.Qb8 Qc6 
62.Qb4 Qd7 63.Rd1 h2 64.Bg2 Qe7 65.Rh1 Qh4 66.Qe1 Qg3 67.Qe2 Na4 68.Ka3 
Nc3 69.Qc2 Qg5 70.Qb2 Nb1+ 71.Qxb1 Qxg2 72.Ka4 Bd4 73.Qd1 Qg1 74.c5 Bxc5 
75.Qb1 Qxb1 76.Rxb1 Bg1 77.Rb7+ Kh6 78.Rb8 g5 79.Rh8+ Kg7 80.Rxh2 Bxh2 81.
Kb4 g4 82.a6 0-1
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