Tough old test position

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

Howard E
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Tough old test position

Post by Howard E »

Old favourite from ecm98.
This probably easy for a crafty human.

[D] 1q1r3k/3P1pp1/ppBR1n1p/4Q2P/P4P2/8/5PK1/8 w - - bm Rxf6;
zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Tough old test position

Post by zullil »

Howard E wrote:Old favourite from ecm98.
This probably easy for a crafty human.

[D] 1q1r3k/3P1pp1/ppBR1n1p/4Q2P/P4P2/8/5PK1/8 w - - bm Rxf6;
Not too hard for a crafty Crafty-23.0 either:

Code: Select all

max threads set to 8.
EGTB cache memory =  256M bytes.
hash table memory = 3072M bytes.
pawn hash table memory =  512M bytes.
choose from book moves randomly (using weights.)
choose from 5 best moves.
pondering enabled.
Audio output enabled
 game/10 minutes primary time control


Crafty v23.0 (8 cpus)

White(1): book off
book file disabled.
White(1): ponder off
pondering disabled.
White(1): setboard 1q1r3k/3P1pp1/ppBR1n1p/4Q2P/P4P2/8/5PK1/8 w - - bm Rxf6;
White(1): st 1800
search time set to 1800.00.
White(1): display

       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    8  |   |<Q>|   |<R>|   | . |   |<K>|
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    7  | . |   | . |-P-| . |<P>|<P>|   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    6  |<P>|<P>|-B-|-R-|   |<N>|   |<P>|
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    5  | . |   | . |   |-Q-|   | . |-P-|
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    4  |-P-| . |   | . |   |-P-|   | . |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    3  | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    2  |   | . |   | . |   |-P-|-K-| . |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    1  | . |   | . |   | . |   | . |   |
       +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
         a   b   c   d   e   f   g   h

White&#40;1&#41;&#58; go
              time limit 30&#58;00 (+0.00&#41; &#40;30&#58;00&#41;
              depth   time  score   variation &#40;1&#41;
starting thread 1
starting thread 2
starting thread 3
starting thread 4
starting thread 5
starting thread 6
starting thread 7
                9->   0.04   1.54   1. Rd4 Qxe5 2. fxe5 Nxh5 3. Rb4 g5
                                    4. Rxb6 Nf4+ 5. Kf3 a5
               10     0.05   1.58   1. Rd4 Qxe5 2. fxe5 Nxh5 3. Rb4 g5
                                    4. Rxb6 Nf4+ 5. Kg3 Nd3 6. Rxa6 Nxe5
               10->   0.06   1.58   1. Rd4 Qxe5 2. fxe5 Nxh5 3. Rb4 g5
                                    4. Rxb6 Nf4+ 5. Kg3 Nd3 6. Rxa6 Nxe5
               11     0.06   1.58   1. Rd4 Qxe5 2. fxe5 Nxh5 3. Rb4 g5
                                    4. Rxb6 Nf4+ 5. Kg3 Nd3 6. Rxa6 Nxe5
               11->   0.07   1.58   1. Rd4 Qxe5 2. fxe5 Nxh5 3. Rb4 g5
                                    4. Rxb6 Nf4+ 5. Kg3 Nd3 6. Rxa6 Nxe5
                                    &#40;s=4&#41;
               12     0.08   1.43   1. Rd4 Qxe5 2. fxe5 Nxh5 3. Rb4 g5
                                    4. Rxb6 Nf4+ 5. Kg3 Nd3 6. e6 fxe6
                                    7. Rxa6 &#40;s=3&#41;
               12     0.28   1.60   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 b5
                                    4. Qxh6 b4 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Qc5+ Kg8
                                    7. Kf3 Qc7 &#40;s=2&#41;
               12->   0.29   1.60   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 b5
                                    4. Qxh6 b4 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Qc5+ Kg8
                                    7. Kf3 Qc7
               13     0.41   1.80   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 b5
                                    4. Qxh6 b4 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Qc5+ Kg8
                                    7. Kf3 Qc7 8. Ke4 <HT>
               13->   0.42   1.80   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 b5
                                    4. Qxh6 b4 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Qc5+ Kg8
                                    7. Kf3 Qc7 8. Ke4 <HT>
               14     0.47   1.78   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 b5
                                    4. Qxh6 b4 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Qc5+ Kg8
                                    7. Kf3 Qc7 8. Ke4 a5
               14->   0.50   1.78   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 b5
                                    4. Qxh6 b4 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Qc5+ Kg8
                                    7. Kf3 Qc7 8. Ke4 a5
               15     1.08   2.04   1. Qd4 Ng8 2. Be4 Qc7 3. Bd3 Nf6 4.
                                    Rxf6 gxf6 5. Qxf6+ Kg8 6. Qxh6 Rxd7
                                    7. Bh7+ Kh8 8. Bf5+ <HT>
               15->   1.11   2.04   1. Qd4 Ng8 2. Be4 Qc7 3. Bd3 Nf6 4.
                                    Rxf6 gxf6 5. Qxf6+ Kg8 6. Qxh6 Rxd7
                                    7. Bh7+ Kh8 8. Bf5+ <HT>
               16     1.23   2.04   1. Qd4 Ng8 2. Be4 Qc7 3. Bd3 Nf6 4.
                                    Rxf6 gxf6 5. Qxf6+ Kg8 6. Qxh6 Rxd7
                                    7. Bh7+ Kh8 8. Bf5+ Kg8 9. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    10. Qxb6 Qxa4
               16->   1.29   2.04   1. Qd4 Ng8 2. Be4 Qc7 3. Bd3 Nf6 4.
                                    Rxf6 gxf6 5. Qxf6+ Kg8 6. Qxh6 Rxd7
                                    7. Bh7+ Kh8 8. Bf5+ Kg8 9. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    10. Qxb6 Qxa4
               17     2.17   2.19   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. Kg3 b5 9. axb5 Qd3+ 10.
                                    Kg4 axb5
               17->   2.29   2.19   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. Kg3 b5 9. axb5 Qd3+ 10.
                                    Kg4 axb5
               18     2.58   2.19   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. Kg3 b5 9. axb5 Qd3+ 10.
                                    Kg4 axb5 <HT>
               18->   2.85   2.19   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. Kg3 b5 9. axb5 Qd3+ 10.
                                    Kg4 axb5 <HT>
               19     3.42   2.17   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qxa4 9. Qd8+ Qe8 10.
                                    Qxb6 Qa8+ 11. Kg3 a5
               19->   5.10   2.17   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qxa4 9. Qd8+ Qe8 10.
                                    Qxb6 Qa8+ 11. Kg3 a5 &#40;s=2&#41;
               20     6.24   2.34   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qd4 10.
                                    Qf4 Qb2 11. Kg4 Ke7
               20->   8.55   2.34   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qd4 10.
                                    Qf4 Qb2 11. Kg4 Ke7 &#40;s=2&#41;
               21    10.68   2.37   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qe5+ 10.
                                    Qf4 Qc3+ 11. f3 Qf6 12. Kg4 Kg8 13.
                                    Qg5+ Qxg5+ 14. Kxg5
               21->  19.84   2.37   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qe5+ 10.
                                    Qf4 Qc3+ 11. f3 Qf6 12. Kg4 Kg8 13.
                                    Qg5+ Qxg5+ 14. Kxg5 &#40;s=3&#41;
               22    23.92   2.39   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qd4 10.
                                    f6 Qc3+ 11. Kg4 Qd4+ 12. Qf4 Qd1+ 13.
                                    f3 Qd7+ 14. Kg3 Qa7 &#40;s=2&#41;
               22->  35.86   2.39   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qd4 10.
                                    f6 Qc3+ 11. Kg4 Qd4+ 12. Qf4 Qd1+ 13.
                                    f3 Qd7+ 14. Kg3 Qa7 &#40;s=3&#41;
               23    43.37   2.43   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qd4 10.
                                    f6 Qc3+ 11. Kg4 Qd4+ 12. Qf4 Qd7+ 13.
                                    Kg3 Qd8 14. Qb4+ Kg8 15. Qg4+ Kf8 16.
                                    Qg7+ Ke8 &#40;s=2&#41;
               23->   1&#58;02   2.43   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f5 Qe4+ 9. Kg3 Qd4 10.
                                    f6 Qc3+ 11. Kg4 Qd4+ 12. Qf4 Qd7+ 13.
                                    Kg3 Qd8 14. Qb4+ Kg8 15. Qg4+ Kf8 16.
                                    Qg7+ Ke8 &#40;s=3&#41;
               24     1&#58;21   2.52   1. Qd4 Kg8 2. Rxf6 gxf6 3. Qxf6 Qc7
                                    4. Qxh6 Rxd7 5. Qg5+ Kf8 6. Bxd7 Qxd7
                                    7. h6 Qd4 8. f3 Qd2+ 9. Kh3 Qd7+ 10.
                                    Kh4 Qd4 11. Kh5 Qd7 12. Qg7+ Ke7 13.
                                    Kg5 Qxa4 14. Qf6+ Kd7 15. h7 &#40;s=2&#41;
               24     2&#58;48     +1   1. Rxf6!                          
               24     2&#58;57     +3   1. Rxf6!                          
               24     3&#58;03   4.98   1. Rxf6 Qxe5 2. fxe5 gxf6 3. exf6 Kh7
                                    4. Kf3 Kg8 5. Ke4 Rb8 6. Ke5 b5 7.
                                    Kd6 bxa4 8. Bxa4 Kh7 9. Kc7 Ra8 10.
                                    d8=Q Rxd8 <HT>
               24->   3&#58;03   4.98   1. Rxf6 Qxe5 2. fxe5 gxf6 3. exf6 Kh7
                                    4. Kf3 Kg8 5. Ke4 Rb8 6. Ke5 b5 7.
                                    Kd6 bxa4 8. Bxa4 Kh7 9. Kc7 Ra8 10.
                                    d8=Q Rxd8 <HT> &#40;s=7&#41;
               25     3&#58;08   4.98   1. Rxf6 Qxe5 2. fxe5 gxf6 3. exf6 Kh7
                                    4. Kf3 Kg8 5. Ke4 Rb8 6. Ke5 b5 7.
                                    Kd6 bxa4 8. Bxa4 Kh7 9. Kc7 <HT> &#40;s=6&#41;
               25->   3&#58;50   4.98   1. Rxf6 Qxe5 2. fxe5 gxf6 3. exf6 Kh7
                                    4. Kf3 Kg8 5. Ke4 Rb8 6. Ke5 b5 7.
                                    Kd6 bxa4 8. Bxa4 Kh7 9. Kc7 <HT> &#40;s=9&#41;
               26     4&#58;04   5.26   1. Rxf6 Qxe5 2. fxe5 gxf6 3. exf6 Kh7
                                    4. Kf3 Kg8 5. Ke4 Rb8 6. Ke5 b5 7.
                                    Kd6 bxa4 8. Bxa4 Rf8 9. Kc7 a5 10.
                                    d8=Q Rxd8 11. Kxd8 Kf8 12. Bd7 a4 13.
                                    Bxa4 Kg8 &#40;s=8&#41;
               26->   5&#58;34   5.26   1. Rxf6 Qxe5 2. fxe5 gxf6 3. exf6 Kh7
                                    4. Kf3 Kg8 5. Ke4 Rb8 6. Ke5 b5 7.
                                    Kd6 bxa4 8. Bxa4 Rf8 9. Kc7 a5 10.
                                    d8=Q Rxd8 11. Kxd8 Kf8 12. Bd7 a4 13.
                                    Bxa4 Kg8 &#40;s=8&#41;
Howard E
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Tough old test position

Post by Howard E »

Thanks for the test. I actually started to believe that no program would find this in a reasonable time. Good job for Crafty.
Programs like Rybka, Bright and Stockfish immediately see the jump in score only after Rxf6 is input. Their first choice moves come in around the +2.** range but leap to +5.** in seconds after the best move is entered. Similar to some previous posts with the nullmove theme yet this one is not a null move one. What is the explanation? Pruning ? or transition to endgame ?

What about Shredder or Fritz here?
Terry McCracken
Posts: 16465
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: Tough old test position

Post by Terry McCracken »

Howard E wrote:Thanks for the test. I actually started to believe that no program would find this in a reasonable time. Good job for Crafty.
Programs like Rybka, Bright and Stockfish immediately see the jump in score only after Rxf6 is input. Their first choice moves come in around the +2.** range but leap to +5.** in seconds after the best move is entered. Similar to some previous posts with the nullmove theme yet this one is not a null move one. What is the explanation? Pruning ? or transition to endgame ?

What about Shredder or Fritz here?

Probably...you need a program to actively seek combinations. They need to look at Rxf6 and stick with it unless it's a dead end. Then they would find the solution in this case almost instantly.
Terry McCracken
User avatar
AdminX
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA

Re: Tough old test position

Post by AdminX »

[d]1q1r3k/3P1pp1/ppBR1n1p/4Q2P/P4P2/8/5PK1/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by List 512 (1 Core @ 2GHz):

1.Rxf6 Qxe5 2.Rxh6+ gxh6 3.fxe5 Kg7 4.f4 f6 5.exf6+ Kxf6 6.Kh3
+/- (0.77) Depth: 6 00:00:00 11kN
+/= (0.61) Depth: 8 00:00:00 50kN

1.Rd4 Qa7 2.Rd3 Kg8 3.Rg3 Kh7 4.Be4+ Kh8 5.Bc6 Kh7 6.Be4+ Kh8 7.Bc6 Kh7 8.Be4+
+/= (0.68) Depth: 8 00:00:00 79kN

1.Rd3 Qa7 2.Kg1 Kg8 3.Rg3 Kh7 4.Qf5+ Kh8 5.Qe5 Kh7 6.Qf5+ Kh8 7.Qe5 Kh7 8.Qf5+
+/- (0.76) Depth: 8 00:00:00 148kN

1.Qd4 Ng8 2.Bf3 Qc7 3.Qxb6 Qxb6 4.Rxb6 Rxd7 5.Rxa6 Rd4 6.Kg3 Rd2
+/- (0.77) Depth: 8 00:00:00 213kN
+/- (0.77) Depth: 11 00:00:01 1142kN

1.Kf1 a5 2.Kg1 Ng8 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.Qd4 Kh7 5.Rxb6 Qa7 6.Rd6 Qxd4
+/- (0.84) Depth: 11 00:00:02 2374kN
+/- (1.06) Depth: 12 00:00:03 4461kN

1.Qd4 Ng8 2.Bf3 Qc7 3.Qxb6 Qxb6 4.Rxb6 Rxd7 5.Rxa6 Rd4 6.Kg3 Nf6 7.Ra7 Kg8
+/- (1.17) Depth: 12 00:00:04 5132kN
+/- (1.10) Depth: 13 00:00:05 6608kN

1.Rd3 Qxe5 2.fxe5 Nxh5 3.Kf3 g6 4.Rb3 Ng7 5.Rxb6 Nf5 6.Rxa6 Nd4+ 7.Ke4 Nxc6 8.Rxc6
+/- (1.18) Depth: 13 00:00:06 8083kN
+/- (0.98) Depth: 14 00:00:09 12936kN

1.Qd4 Qc7 2.Rxf6 gxf6 3.Qxf6+ Kg8 4.Qxh6 Rxd7 5.Qg5+ Kf8 6.Bxd7 Qxd7 7.h6 Qd4 8.f3
+/- (1.31) Depth: 14 00:00:12 17067kN
+- (1.94) Depth: 18 00:01:33 130mN

1.Rxf6 Qxe5 2.fxe5 gxf6 3.exf6 Kh7 4.Kf3 Kg8 5.Ke4 b5 6.axb5 axb5 7.Bxb5 Rb8 8.Bc6
+- (1.97) Depth: 18 00:01:43 146mN
+- (2.11) Depth: 19 00:02:14 194mN
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers
kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: Tough old test position

Post by kgburcham »

[D] 1q1r3k/3P1pp1/ppBR1n1p/4Q2P/P4P2/8/5PK1/8 w - - 0 1

Zappa
nullmove disabled

1.Rxf6 Qxe5 2.fxe5 gxf6 3.exf6 Kg8 4.Kf3 Rb8 5.Ke4 Kh8 6.Bb7 Rd8 7.Bc6 Rb8
+- (2.06) Depth: 13/44 00:00:14 54402kN
1.Rxf6 Qxe5 2.fxe5 gxf6 3.exf6 Kg8 4.Kf3 Rb8 5.Ke4 Kh8 6.Kd5 b5 7.Kd6 bxa4 8.Bxa4
+- (2.27) Depth: 14/47 00:00:16 59493kN
1.Rxf6 Qxe5 2.fxe5 gxf6 3.exf6 Kg8 4.Kf3 Rb8 5.Ke4 Kf8 6.Ke5 Rd8 7.Kd6 b5 8.axb5 axb5 9.Bxb5 Rxd7+ 10.Bxd7
+- (2.97) Depth: 15/49 00:00:28 105mN
1.Rxf6 Qxe5 2.fxe5 gxf6 3.exf6 Kg8 4.Kf3 Rb8 5.Ke4 Kf8 6.Ke5 Rd8 7.Kd6 b5 8.axb5 Rxd7+ 9.Bxd7 axb5 10.Bxb5
+- (2.98) Depth: 16/51 00:00:59 220mN