Vas about IPP engine

[Mark]

The fact that it is a reverse engineered clone is not at issue. The people who did the reverse engineering have said that they were doing that and have been keeping Vas up to date with their progress to try to get some sort of outburst from him. If Strelka is an example, Vas will most likely simply ignore them and release code for R3 when he releases R4. The person with the original ideas will always be ahead of the curve and will always have the best product. The others will simply be scrambling to catch up. If you have a convertible car and it starts raining a little, go fast enough and you won't get wet. Hopefully R4 and future Rybkas will be like that. As long as Vas is interested in computer chess and as long as he has the strongest chess program on earth, there will always be someone out there who will try to steal what he cannot produce by himself.

Well, I can't see Vas ever releasing the R3 code, but he may possibly be releasing the R3 exe, though.

[Alexander Schmidt]

links to an engine when reasonable doubt exits in the Chess Computer community regarding its originality are not

Again, Rybka is more similar to Fruit than to Ippolit. In the past one was unguilty until proven the opposite. Now someone who writes a strong engine has to proof the originality? But what more can they do than showing the sources?

If someone says it is a clone he should proof it.

This place became a little Guantanamo...

[Edward German]

The only thing I can see is that Vas says "someone hacked Rybka 3". He did not even say a word about Ippolit, or gave an examples from it's source.

What I can see comparing the 2 engines is:

Code: Select all

No tables in Ippolit
Different Movegen
Completely different UCI handling
Different evaluation
Different search
Different Maximum Depth

Show me something similar except the strength

Interesting!

And yet Ippolit is currently stronger than Rybka 3 (of course, 1-CPU vs. 1-CPU). So what is the secret of Ippolit? (Rybka 3 alone so it can not be)

[Christopher Conkie]

The fact that it is a reverse engineered clone is not at issue. The people who did the reverse engineering have said that they were doing that and have been keeping Vas up to date with their progress to try to get some sort of outburst from him. If Strelka is an example, Vas will most likely simply ignore them and release code for R3 when he releases R4. The person with the original ideas will always be ahead of the curve and will always have the best product. The others will simply be scrambling to catch up. If you have a convertible car and it starts raining a little, go fast enough and you won't get wet. Hopefully R4 and future Rybkas will be like that. As long as Vas is interested in computer chess and as long as he has the strongest chess program on earth, there will always be someone out there who will try to steal what he cannot produce by himself.

The only problem is that Ipp 080 is currently better product than Rybka 3 on 1 cpu.

This is a wrong statement Slobodan, If you set the contempt in Rybka to 0, i believe you will not see such results.

However, in the spirit of open minded discussion I also think that Alex has a valid point.

Rybka when it came out was treated differently, but also in turn it was released without being able to look at it beforehand and to ask various professional programmers for their opinions.

I do think Alex is right to point out this double standard.

Christopher

[slobo]

The fact that it is a reverse engineered clone is not at issue. The people who did the reverse engineering have said that they were doing that and have been keeping Vas up to date with their progress to try to get some sort of outburst from him. If Strelka is an example, Vas will most likely simply ignore them and release code for R3 when he releases R4. The person with the original ideas will always be ahead of the curve and will always have the best product. The others will simply be scrambling to catch up. If you have a convertible car and it starts raining a little, go fast enough and you won't get wet. Hopefully R4 and future Rybkas will be like that. As long as Vas is interested in computer chess and as long as he has the strongest chess program on earth, there will always be someone out there who will try to steal what he cannot produce by himself.

The only problem is that Ipp 080 is currently better product than Rybka 3 on 1 cpu.

This is a wrong statement Slobodan, If you set the contempt in Rybka to 0, i believe you will not see such results.

However, in the spirit of open minded discussion I also think that Alex has a valid point.

Rybka when it came out was treated differently, but also in turn it was released without being able to look at it beforehand and to ask various professional programmers for their opinions.

I do think Alex is right to point out this double standard.

Christopher

There is another point in the same direction:

when Rybka came out it was in EXE form, without code; and no one clamed it was a clone.
Now we have a new strong engine open source, and almost all CCC members blame it as a clone.

Where is consistency in this matter?

[Christopher Conkie]

The fact that it is a reverse engineered clone is not at issue. The people who did the reverse engineering have said that they were doing that and have been keeping Vas up to date with their progress to try to get some sort of outburst from him. If Strelka is an example, Vas will most likely simply ignore them and release code for R3 when he releases R4. The person with the original ideas will always be ahead of the curve and will always have the best product. The others will simply be scrambling to catch up. If you have a convertible car and it starts raining a little, go fast enough and you won't get wet. Hopefully R4 and future Rybkas will be like that. As long as Vas is interested in computer chess and as long as he has the strongest chess program on earth, there will always be someone out there who will try to steal what he cannot produce by himself.

The only problem is that Ipp 080 is currently better product than Rybka 3 on 1 cpu.

This is a wrong statement Slobodan, If you set the contempt in Rybka to 0, i believe you will not see such results.

However, in the spirit of open minded discussion I also think that Alex has a valid point.

Rybka when it came out was treated differently, but also in turn it was released without being able to look at it beforehand and to ask various professional programmers for their opinions.

I do think Alex is right to point out this double standard.

Christopher

There is another point in the same direction:

when Rybka came out it was in EXE form, without code; and no one clamed it was a clone.
Now we have a new strong engine open source, and almost all CCC members blame it as a clone.

Where is consistency in this matter?

I don't know is the easy answer. However, I am going to show you the first few paragraphs of what I wanted to say to Michael at the top (but then thought naaah why bother)

I understand your point of view. What would leave you overwhelmed?

When Rybka came out everyone saw similarities with Fruit. Is the onus now on the commercial programmer to prove that their work has been disassembled?

Normally its the suspect item (binary) you check against source code(or other binaries). In the Ippolit case you are checking the suspect source against binaries (or available source).

So you see, lots is different this time around.

Christopher

[playjunior]

Can someone PM me a link to a properly compiled EXE?

Their website is so disorganized and is written in a language which is unknown to me. It has some words adapted from English, like "is", "strong", "ship" etc, but I am sure it is not English because I didn't understand a single sentence.

But please, I am interested in the engine ("ship"? ), someone PM me where to get a proper compile.

[M ANSARI]

The fact that it is a reverse engineered clone is not at issue. The people who did the reverse engineering have said that they were doing that and have been keeping Vas up to date with their progress to try to get some sort of outburst from him. If Strelka is an example, Vas will most likely simply ignore them and release code for R3 when he releases R4. The person with the original ideas will always be ahead of the curve and will always have the best product. The others will simply be scrambling to catch up. If you have a convertible car and it starts raining a little, go fast enough and you won't get wet. Hopefully R4 and future Rybkas will be like that. As long as Vas is interested in computer chess and as long as he has the strongest chess program on earth, there will always be someone out there who will try to steal what he cannot produce by himself.

The only problem is that Ipp 080 is currently better product than Rybka 3 on 1 cpu.

I really doubt it. Although I haven't bothered to run it or test it (I have had the program emailed to me) since I am convinced it is a clone, I did ask 2 people who did have it and were curious to try it with a slight change of parameters ... basically changing the contempt of R3 to zero and using non bullet time controls say 5 0 and above. The result came back as I had expected, R3 reverses the scores. With stronger hardware and longer time controls I expect the difference to be more prominent. Sometimes when you remove knowledge and trim down an engine to bare essential it will run an executable much quicker, but that advantage will only be visible at fast time controls. Rybka Winfinder was similar to that, very little knowledge but extremely fast searcher, sometimes 10X faster at finding critical lines ... yet the engine was not so strong in real longer time control games.

I guess this all boils down to some people wishing or hoping that a similar breakthrough in chess engines has come about as what happened with Rybka 1.0 beta ... but unfortunately that is not the case. This is stolen code from Rybka 3 mixed in with other code from other programs to try to get it to run. Every engine out there will probably gain a bunch of ELO by getting new ideas, similar to what happened after the Strelka affair. But I think Rybka 4 will come out and this will be passe news.

Even if this was not an engine made from stolen code, I would still not find it interesting. I don't find SP engines interesting at all, and bugs bug the hell out of me.

[yanquis1972]

can i ask a question, & sorry to ask for the clarification to be repeated, but why is this just blowing up now?

i found the ippolit site months ago; why did no one capable have the curiosity to compile this?? iirc the files were available, i just assumed id missed the explosion over it (had no idea itd be this big) and it had already gone the way of strelka.

wtf took so long??

[Christopher Conkie]

can i ask a question, & sorry to ask for the clarification to be repeated, but why is this just blowing up now?

i found the ippolit site months ago; why did no one capable have the curiosity to compile this?? iirc the files were available, i just assumed id missed the explosion over it (had no idea itd be this big) and it had already gone the way of strelka.

wtf took so long??

We did have that curiosity because we are always on the lookout for new engines (of any strength).

Christopher