George Tsavdaris wrote:
So in order to believe or even start suspecting that Ippolit is a clone of Rybka, Vasik just has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them.
Excellent point indeed!!!
You do jump to the most amazing conclusions, don't you?
Michael Sherwin wrote:I found a 64bit version of Ippolit and compared its play, node rate (adjusted), depth of search and other factors to Rybka232a32 (well that is the latest version that I have) and determined to the best of my ability that they are not even close to being the same.
Subjective first conclusion: not a clone
It's a Rybka 3 clone, not a Rybka 2.3.2a clone. They've reverse engineered Rybka 3 as best they can. They've then tried to "fix" it and make it stronger.
However, I'm not a programmer, so somebody else could probably do a better job of explaining things.
Cheers,
Graham.
"I'm not a programmer", but then, why do you want that we believe you more than Michael Sherwin who is a programmer?
People will believe what they want to, no matter what is said.
Even if Vas provided the direct proof, some would say he was lying and just trying to protect his spot as top dog, whereas others would believe him.
I was away from the computer chess scene but this case is so interresting that I came back for the moment
The history repeats itself again and again Someone is playing mind games manipulating the whole computer chess community taking as much pleasure of this bizzare occupation as he could
And again no sensible definition of clones and no proof -- just some misty senses and, of course, as a guiding light -- the sacred words of Vasik
Ippolit can be an illegal derrivative of many programs (incl Rybka), but please let the programmers talk
ps:
If I was in Vasik skin, I would announce any strong engine as Rybka clone -- just for the sake of eliminating the competition But I'm not Vasik, am I?
George Tsavdaris wrote:
So in order to believe or even start suspecting that Ippolit is a clone of Rybka, Vasik just has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them.
Excellent point indeed!!!
You do jump to the most amazing conclusions, don't you?
Sometimes the things that turn a strong chessprogram into an outstanding program can seem like little things. But a lot of effort will have gone into it. So in order to prove that they are stolen, do you expect Vas is willing to point exactly what Rybka's strong points are? He may as well fold up his business. In that sense George is totally right. Nobody is saying that Ippolit is a pure clone.
Vas did not fold up in April so that proves he is not choosing the easy way out. Then for some people to say they are "keeping an open mind" that Vas might just say things to "keep the top spot", that he could make up false accusations of cloning when he does not have the evidence, is hardly a friendly thing to say. Give the man some credit.
Regards,
Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
Christopher Conkie wrote:
You think Vas would do that to Gerd and the community?
The two cpw-pages Golyadkin and Ippolit by Gogol were deleted after Vasik's note to me, that cpw was hosting obvious piracy links. He made implications Ippolit is an illegal Rybka clone.
He needs to provide his proof then, as otherwise, it could just be that any program that threatens Rybka's perch at the top, gets accused of being illegal.
Excellent point!!!
So in order to believe or even start suspecting that Ippolit is a clone of Rybka, Vasik just has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them.
Excellent point indeed!!!
Dear George,
you don´t interpret correctly written codes.
"He needs to provide his proof" doesnt not mean
"he has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them".
He may find out other way to prove it.
Are you really mathematician ?
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
George Tsavdaris wrote:
So in order to believe or even start suspecting that Ippolit is a clone of Rybka, Vasik just has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them.
Excellent point indeed!!!
Dear George,
you don´t interpret correctly written codes.
"He needs to provide his proof" doesnt not mean
"he has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them".
He may find out other way to prove it.
What other way?
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....
George Tsavdaris wrote:
So in order to believe or even start suspecting that Ippolit is a clone of Rybka, Vasik just has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them.
Excellent point indeed!!!
Dear George,
you don´t interpret correctly written codes.
"He needs to provide his proof" doesnt not mean
"he has to release the code of Rybka 3 and let us compare them".
He may find out other way to prove it.
What other way?
It´s up to the accuser to find out, or decide, or ...
the accuser must know better than myself.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
I was away from the computer chess scene but this case is so interresting that I came back for the moment
The history repeats itself again and again Someone is playing mind games manipulating the whole computer chess community taking as much pleasure of this bizzare occupation as he could
And again no sensible definition of clones and no proof -- just some misty senses and, of course, as a guiding light -- the sacred words of Vasik
Ippolit can be an illegal derrivative of many programs (incl Rybka), but please let the programmers talk
ps:
If I was in Vasik skin, I would announce any strong engine as Rybka clone -- just for the sake of eliminating the competition But I'm not Vasik, am I?
Regards from poker tables,
Geno
I suspect you´ve started playing poker in a hope to get face to face with 'ChessBaby' Almira Skripchenko.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
As the dust begins to settle I think we'll discover that many of the claims about IPPOLIT playing completely different than Rybka are false. To my eyes it plays like Rybka with a different personality -- an Ultra Dynamic personality that's been optimized for raw speed rather than absolute Elo. On more than one occasion it's play has reminded me of Rybka Winfinder. The biggest "tell" is that IPPOLIT's initial impression of a position is usually identical to Rybka. It's common for engines to agree on a move after they've had time to chew on the position for a while but they rarely assess the position the same. IPPOLIT's initial assessment of the position consistently matches Rybka 3 so I'm inclined to agree with those who think this isn't some new kid on the block. It's a clever bastard and a bastardization of Vas's work.
