question for GCP: are you planning a new release of Sjeng?

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

Nothing concrete at this point. Due to what happened with Rybka (Ippolit disaster) I am going to consider very carefully before releasing anything new, or whether it even makes sense.

Why it would not make sense?

I'm not sure many people will buy Deep Sjeng 4 with Ippolit being available for free.

Ippolit makes it very hard to make a commercial engine. I could compete with Vasik, for example on price, even if my engine was weaker. But I cannot compete with some hackers who rip off Vasik's work and then republish it for free. That's like competing with twice as many people at infinitely less times the price.

Aside from that, there's the risk it also gets reverse engineered and republished for free, and then I get called I liar when I point this out, and have to post an extensive analysis revealing the secrets of my engine before people believe me and stop downloading (or not even that) the illegal clone.

I don't have to sell my engine, it's a hobby. So I can do without this shit.

[Graham Banks]

Nothing concrete at this point. Due to what happened with Rybka (Ippolit disaster) I am going to consider very carefully before releasing anything new, or whether it even makes sense.

Why it would not make sense?

I'm not sure many people will buy Deep Sjeng 4 with Ippolit being available for free.

Ippolit makes it very hard to make a commercial engine. I could compete with Vasik, for example on price, even if my engine was weaker. But I cannot compete with some hackers who rip off Vasik's work and then republish it for free. That's like competing with twice as many people at infinitely less times the price.

Aside from that, there's the risk it also gets reverse engineered and republished for free, and then I get called I liar when I point this out, and have to post an extensive analysis revealing the secrets of my engine before people believe me and stop downloading (or not even that) the illegal clone.

I don't have to sell my engine, it's a hobby. So I can do without this shit.

I'm glad you've chosen to spoke out. Disappointed that we might not get any more versions of Deep Sjeng, but your sentiments are perfectly understandable. If other engine authors follow in your footsteps, perhaps people will realise the damage that unscrupulous morons can do to our hobby with their greedy and unlawful actions.

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

If it is illegal (I haven't been following the threads on this engine) what would be more disappointing is if other competitor commercial engine authors studied the code with a view to improving their own engines. Their hands would be just as dirty as the person who committed the alleged illegal act in the first place. It must be a huge temptation, but one I'd hope most if not all would resist.

I can tell you with certainty that all have already done so. It would be moronically stupid not to do this.

What to do with this knowledge is another matter. To make good use of it, you might have to rework your engine to work a lot like Rybka. If your engine is like Rybka, but somewhat different and weaker, then what case have you still got for selling it?

I can see another side too: even if you don't do this and improve the engine independently, nobody will believe you anyway and many will say you just ripped off Rybka. So better start with that, add your own stuff, and if the result is stronger than Rybka, people will believe it's an original engine again. This sounds ludicrous but there's 100's of threads in this forum to prove it.

The Ippolit situation is just a massive lose-lose situations for all parties involved. Including, eventually, the users.

[George Tsavdaris]

Yeah - the general glee with with which some have accepted the illegal engine with both hands and run with it is very disappointing.

If it is illegal (I haven't been following the threads on this engine) what would be more disappointing is if other competitor commercial engine authors studied the code with a view to improving their own engines. Their hands would be just as dirty as the person who committed the alleged illegal act in the first place. It must be a huge temptation, but one I'd hope most if not all would resist.

Why do you believe that knowledge should be locked on a cave?
Ideas and knowledge is free and anyone can use anything without any moral issues.

Of course the one who reverse engineered Rybka 3(if he did) and produced the code and provided it to the public, is illegal and probably immoral. But not the ones who look at the code.

I equate it to the crime of receiving or fencing stolen goods. That's why it's wrong.

Agreed

I don't consider knowledge to be a part of "goods".
Knowledge is free for anyone and it can't be stolen or copyrighted.

You disagree and it's your right to do of course.

I consider it wrong and immoral to reverse engineer a program and publish its source code before even giving to the programmer the chance of doing it himself when he thinks it's the right time, but i consider it also wrong and immoral that a person keeps all the knowledge for himself without giving any signs of any intentions to give the ideas to the public some day.

To take all the knowledge from others(and they were countless) who were kind enough to provide their ideas and knowledge to the public for free(starting form alpha/beta, null move etc to answering question here in CCC), and then take advantage of these ideas and then refuse to give your own ideas, is it or it's not immoral i ask you?
Not illegal, but immoral. So?

[Graham Banks]

..........
The Ippolit situation is just a massive lose-lose situations for all parties involved. Including, eventually, the users.

Sadly yes. The situation also hasn't been helped at all by the strong anti-Vas atmosphere that seems to pervade this forum.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Nothing concrete at this point. Due to what happened with Rybka (Ippolit disaster) I am going to consider very carefully before releasing anything new, or whether it even makes sense.

Why it would not make sense?

I'm not sure many people will buy Deep Sjeng 4 with Ippolit being available for free.

Ippolit makes it very hard to make a commercial engine. I could compete with Vasik, for example on price, even if my engine was weaker. But I cannot compete with some hackers who rip off Vasik's work and then republish it for free. That's like competing with twice as many people at infinitely less times the price.

Aside from that, there's the risk it also gets reverse engineered and republished for free, and then I get called I liar when I point this out, and have to post an extensive analysis revealing the secrets of my engine before people believe me and stop downloading (or not even that) the illegal clone.

I don't have to sell my engine, it's a hobby. So I can do without this shit.

I think that you're a person who will stand and speak out and will fight back with all you have....that's the impression I have about you....

Now the Rybka team is another story....even the greatest conspiracies all over the world can't get even close to what they apply only to protect Rybka's dectatorship....that will remain so until they proove the opposite....they won't,no ....then they are manipulating us,at least some of us,not me included please....
Dr.D

[Albert Silver]

Yeah - the general glee with with which some have accepted the illegal engine with both hands and run with it is very disappointing.

If it is illegal (I haven't been following the threads on this engine) what would be more disappointing is if other competitor commercial engine authors studied the code with a view to improving their own engines. Their hands would be just as dirty as the person who committed the alleged illegal act in the first place. It must be a huge temptation, but one I'd hope most if not all would resist.

Why do you believe that knowledge should be locked on a cave?
Ideas and knowledge is free and anyone can use anything without any moral issues.

Of course the one who reverse engineered Rybka 3(if he did) and produced the code and provided it to the public, is illegal and probably immoral. But not the ones who look at the code.

I equate it to the crime of receiving or fencing stolen goods. That's why it's wrong.

Agreed

I don't consider knowledge to be a part of "goods".
Knowledge is free for anyone and it can't be stolen or copyrighted.

You disagree and it's your right to do of course.

I consider it wrong and immoral to reverse engineer a program and publish its source code before even giving to the programmer the chance of doing it himself when he thinks it's the right time

How do you make that decision? Give me an example where and when it would be ok, as per your view, to take and publish his confidential work.

[George Tsavdaris]

Nothing concrete at this point. Due to what happened with Rybka (Ippolit disaster) I am going to consider very carefully before releasing anything new, or whether it even makes sense.

Why it would not make sense?

I'm not sure many people will buy Deep Sjeng 4 with Ippolit being available for free.

Ippolit makes it very hard to make a commercial engine. I could compete with Vasik, for example on price, even if my engine was weaker. But I cannot compete with some hackers who rip off Vasik's work and then republish it for free. That's like competing with twice as many people at infinitely less times the price.

Sad to hear that, but you are correct of course. Ippolit brought a disaster in the commercial computer Chess along with the goods it brought.

Aside from that, there's the risk it also gets reverse engineered and republished for free, and then I get called I liar when I point this out, and have to post an extensive analysis revealing the secrets of my engine before people believe me and stop downloading (or not even that) the illegal clone.

I get the point you're trying to make with this bold way, but i think you are not actually right.

I believe too that Ippolit is 99.9% related with Rybka 3 on some way(reverse engineered probably), but you have to admit that just because it's damn strong and just because Vasik says it's a clone of Rybka are not serious reasons for any person to believe is a clone 100% in order to stop using it.
Until someone provides certain proof that it is a Rybka 3 clone, how, with what possible arguments, you can make anyone to stop using it?

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

i consider it also wrong and immoral that a person keeps all the knowledge for himself without giving any signs of any intentions to give the ideas to the public some day.

Immoral?

Consider this: Vasik makes a living out of selling Rybka. This means he works on the engine, probably over 10 hours per day. The sales argument on Rybka is strength. It's the best there is, by far. A highly talented programmer, spending 10 hours per day focusing only on strength, gets results. Results far beyond what anyone less talented or not focusing only on engine strength has ever produced.

The results are only possible to this extent exactly because the engine can be sold. It cannot be sold if the secrets are available for free and anyone can replicate it.

To put it differently, if IP didn't exist, computer chess would be at the level of Stockfish 1.5.1.

So is it immoral to keep things secret in order to reach significantly higher levels? No.

Saying what Vasik is doing is immoral is like saying that for-profit drug-researching companies are doing is immoral. They are pricing some of their drugs high enough that some people will die because they can't afford treatment.
But it's also the case, that without the commercial case, some drugs might not exist and even more people die.

The value and principles of IP were understood 200 years ago already quite well. It's not because there is a continual effort to pervert or overextend it by right and patent holders that the basic principles are flawed.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

..........
The Ippolit situation is just a massive lose-lose situations for all parties involved. Including, eventually, the users.

Sadly yes. The situation also hasn't been helped at all by the strong anti-Vas atmosphere that seems to pervade this forum.

Vasik is guilty with big G for ignoring the Rybka fans and disrespecting them by not bothering to elaborate the messy situation rised by the cursed engine which is 70 Elo stronger than Rybka....

If a naked statement is enough for you,well,that's your problem,not mine....

BTW,if IP is a clone of Rybka 3,hell reverse engineered or not,the damage is already done right So,why doesn't Mr.Rajlich rise up and proove it,I mean it's already there,exposed to the whole world
I'll tell you why,because the truth is somewhere else,it's something else and time will reveal it....

Yes,it's a clone of Rybka regards,
Dr.D