A Question for Our Sponsor..IPPO Links OK or Not??

[Graham Banks]

https://webspace.utexas.edu/zzw57/rtc/eval/eval.html

Thanks Mincho.

[Rolf]

the fact that virtually every aspect of R1 is directly from Fruit gives a very clear picture.

Funny thing is that Ryan (Fruit) tells me that these claims are grossly exaggerated, but nobody seems prepared to listen to what he has had to say or believe it.

Fruit is "Open-Source". Isn't it? I do respect Ryan but why do you make it sound as if Ryan's opinion is worth more than opinion of several other programmers?

Zach (that studied Fruit), Christophe Theron (that studied Fruit), Bob (that studied Fruit) and other programmers (who studied Fruit) have done extensive research and made a lot of stuff available in the webpage.

With these words the statement is completely false. Question is NOT who "studied" FRUIT (wich is open source) but who studied RYBKA1 beta - and here the so called "crime" begins. Bob has made the claim that he knew from others like ZW what R1beta were about but he didnt study it himself. Out of time -- and for understandable legal reasons. But nowhere at least Bob had presented his conclusive analyses about it. Only small talk. Now the others. CT had neither shown analyses or conclusions IMO, just character defamation on Vas (resp. ethics). That is the same for your "others".

Fact is there is nowhere conclusive proof for the allegations of the campaign against Vas.

Let's work with some common sense about ZW:

if Zach had said "people I see that you all are impressed by R1beta strength and now I will reveil the basic reasons so that you all could copy and paste", Zach would be judged as alien with criminal intentions.

However the other way round in the campaign, the whole direction allegedly should mean something holier and very different:

"Friends, we know that Vas did etically inexcusably things by stealing code from FRUIT which is GPL violation at least. I will show you where R1beta contains stolen data and codes. Now after this you will certainly all condemn Vas with us, me Zach, CT and Bob."

Now, that failed after many years and always moved schedules. IMO the whole analyses are in itself illegal and vicious attempts to damage the leading programmer in computerchess.

The whole hipo hankypanky is meant to demonstrate what Zach has already tried. If we cant top the results of Vasik we can at least publish as much of his codes as we can. If Hipo authors would really to compete they would be obliged to have real identities. But that is not their purpose. They want to disturb and damage Vas. Now the known VIP couldnt openly participate because they would be sued. Hence the anonymity. But from former verbal allegations the persons are known. They can also partially be read in the OpenForum right now.

This is my easy solution of the crime against Vas. Cui bono? Ok, as I said it's primitive envy and irrational hate.

I wish Vasik and his friends all the best and stamina to survive the evil and lawyers who are on the watch to strike when the moment is right.

[mhull]

ICD/ Your Move & Chess and company didn't specifically ask links to (IPPOLIT/Robbolito) to be deleted. They DIDN'T name _any_ engine. They just asked that the links to questionable software to be deleted.

Posts from both yourself and Jeremy in the mods forum straight after this show clearly that you two also knew that they were talking specifically about these engines as you clearly stated so.
I will not quote from that forum because it's private, but at least when a new moderation team gets access to it, they'll be able to see everything in there.

Cheers,
Graham.

They're not questionable anymore (more strong evidence from BB reports)

I have asked Jeremy to read this thread and ask him to comment since he's on a holiday.

The BB report is not universally accepted as far as I'm aware. Who is BB?

If Bob, who has had his program cloned many times, accepts it, and Zach, who knows BB personally (a well known engine author more lately working on Go) accepts it and Ed Schroder accepts it, why are you still on the fence? What engine author is on this jury you're saying is still "out"?

Cheese and rice, man. I think you're a basically good guy but how many more engine programming experts do you require here? It's starting to look rather strange.

There is no way the YOU should be the sole gatekeeper on this issue. You simply are not qualified to judge. Bob and Ed and Zach, they have qualifications.

[Robert Flesher]

the fact that virtually every aspect of R1 is directly from Fruit gives a very clear picture.

Funny thing is that Ryan (Fruit) tells me that these claims are grossly exaggerated, but nobody seems prepared to listen to what he has had to say or believe it.

Fruit is "Open-Source". Isn't it? I do respect Ryan but why do you make it sound as if Ryan's opinion is worth more than opinion of several other programmers?

Zach (that studied Fruit), Christophe Theron (that studied Fruit), Bob (that studied Fruit) and other programmers (who studied Fruit) have done extensive research and made a lot of stuff available in the webpage.

With these words the statement is completely false. Question is NOT who "studied" FRUIT (wich is open source) but who studied RYBKA1 beta - and here the so called "crime" begins. Bob has made the claim that he knew from others like ZW what R1beta were about but he didnt study it himself. Out of time -- and for understandable legal reasons. But nowhere at least Bob had presented his conclusive analyses about it. Only small talk. Now the others. CT had neither shown analyses or conclusions IMO, just character defamation on Vas (resp. ethics). That is the same for your "others".

Fact is there is nowhere conclusive proof for the allegations of the campaign against Vas.

Let's work with some common sense about ZW:

if Zach had said "people I see that you all are impressed by R1beta strength and now I will reveil the basic reasons so that you all could copy and paste", Zach would be judged as alien with criminal intentions.

However the other way round in the campaign, the whole direction allegedly should mean something holier and very different:

"Friends, we know that Vas did etically inexcusably things by stealing code from FRUIT which is GPL violation at least. I will show you where R1beta contains stolen data and codes. Now after this you will certainly all condemn Vas with us, me Zach, CT and Bob."

Now, that failed after many years and always moved schedules. IMO the whole analyses are in itself illegal and vicious attempts to damage the leading programmer in computerchess.

The whole hipo hankypanky is meant to demonstrate what Zach has already tried. If we cant top the results of Vasik we can at least publish as much of his codes as we can. If Hipo authors would really to compete they would be obliged to have real identities. But that is not their purpose. They want to disturb and damage Vas. Now the known VIP couldnt openly participate because they would be sued. Hence the anonymity. But from former verbal allegations the persons are known. They can also partially be read in the OpenForum right now.

This is my easy solution of the crime against Vas. Cui bono? Ok, as I said it's primitive envy and irrational hate.

I wish Vasik and his friends all the best and stamina to survive the evil and lawyers who are on the watch to strike when the moment is right.

Rolf, you sure are amusing!

Consider this, there is an old saying, I quote , "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it".

The fact is we do not know the whole story yet, and Vas has done nothing to defend himself. So maybe you should wait before using words like hate, as they are words of a fanatical zeolot protecting his masters honour. And you are far to clever for that.

[Rolf]

If Bob, who has had his program cloned many times, accepts it, and Zach, who knows BB personally (a well known engine author more lately working on Go) accepts it and Ed Schroder accepts it, why are you still on the fence? What engine author is on this jury you're saying is still "out"?

Cheese and rice, man. I think you're a basically good guy but how many more engine programming experts do you require here? It's starting to look rather strange.

There is no way the YOU should be the sole gatekeeper on this issue. You simply are not qualified to judge. Bob and Ed and Zach, they have qualifications.

Matt, I am astonished. On the one hand you are right. They are all experts but on the other hand they dont know the source code of Rybka. Nobody other than Vas himself and perhaps some who have stolen the code, know it.

Since you mentioned Bob whose program was cloned. Matt, this is a totally different story because Bob knows his code and he searched until he had finally found the evidence. But Matt, he knew what he had looking for. But in the Rybka case he doesnt. In several answers to my questions he admitted that he himself didnt even studyy the code of Rybka. All he did was looking at the analyses of others. But this is something else than what he always did with Crafty clones.

So this is simply not true what you claimed.

Then CT. Have you ever seen analyses from him? Did I miss them?

The only one who gave his conclusion is Zach, but as far as I could understand the debates there was no consense about Zachs conclusions. And this is enough for me as observer. If he had had a smashing convincing stuff enough experts would agree. But not in this case.

Then finally the anonymous heroes. In modern times there is no justification for anonymity and certainly not in computerchess. I mean this alone shows for my observing eyes that crooks are hiding their evil intentions. I would completely ignore their claims. Matt, from science the case is clear. If hipo were NOT a clone from Rybka, so in other words Vas would have made untrue allegations, THEN the guys of Hipo had nothing to fear, if you know what I mean. But if they have done something not kosher THEN of course they must hide themselves because otherwise they'd be sued.

This is all so trivial, that I must wonder how a row of first class chess programmers could miss it. Even I as programming layman can make these conclusions. A second aspect is that these crooks did all their evil work just to cause harm, NOT once to compete because then they must have opened their identity. Also this is a trivial conclusion that proved the wrong of these guys. Really no need to be an expert in computerchess programming.

[mhull]

If Bob, who has had his program cloned many times, accepts it, and Zach, who knows BB personally (a well known engine author more lately working on Go) accepts it and Ed Schroder accepts it, why are you still on the fence? What engine author is on this jury you're saying is still "out"?

Cheese and rice, man. I think you're a basically good guy but how many more engine programming experts do you require here? It's starting to look rather strange.

There is no way the YOU should be the sole gatekeeper on this issue. You simply are not qualified to judge. Bob and Ed and Zach, they have qualifications.

Matt, I am astonished.

Of course you are. Yet I remain un-flummoxed. Why? Because I hold a Bachelors of Science degree in computer science with 20 years of experience. I urge you to remain calm and depend upon your betters regarding the issue.

[bob]

the fact that virtually every aspect of R1 is directly from Fruit gives a very clear picture.

Funny thing is that Ryan (Fruit) tells me that these claims are grossly exaggerated, but nobody seems prepared to listen to what he has had to say or believe it.

Fruit is "Open-Source". Isn't it? I do respect Ryan but why do you make it sound as if Ryan's opinion is worth more than opinion of several other programmers?

Zach (that studied Fruit), Christophe Theron (that studied Fruit), Bob (that studied Fruit) and other programmers (who studied Fruit) have done extensive research and made a lot of stuff available in the webpage.

With these words the statement is completely false. Question is NOT who "studied" FRUIT (wich is open source) but who studied RYBKA1 beta - and here the so called "crime" begins. Bob has made the claim that he knew from others like ZW what R1beta were about but he didnt study it himself. Out of time -- and for understandable legal reasons. But nowhere at least Bob had presented his conclusive analyses about it. Only small talk. Now the others. CT had neither shown analyses or conclusions IMO, just character defamation on Vas (resp. ethics). That is the same for your "others".

Fact is there is nowhere conclusive proof for the allegations of the campaign against Vas.

Let's work with some common sense about ZW:

if Zach had said "people I see that you all are impressed by R1beta strength and now I will reveil the basic reasons so that you all could copy and paste", Zach would be judged as alien with criminal intentions.

However the other way round in the campaign, the whole direction allegedly should mean something holier and very different:

"Friends, we know that Vas did etically inexcusably things by stealing code from FRUIT which is GPL violation at least. I will show you where R1beta contains stolen data and codes. Now after this you will certainly all condemn Vas with us, me Zach, CT and Bob."

Now, that failed after many years and always moved schedules. IMO the whole analyses are in itself illegal and vicious attempts to damage the leading programmer in computerchess.

The whole hipo hankypanky is meant to demonstrate what Zach has already tried. If we cant top the results of Vasik we can at least publish as much of his codes as we can. If Hipo authors would really to compete they would be obliged to have real identities. But that is not their purpose. They want to disturb and damage Vas. Now the known VIP couldnt openly participate because they would be sued. Hence the anonymity. But from former verbal allegations the persons are known. They can also partially be read in the OpenForum right now.

This is my easy solution of the crime against Vas. Cui bono? Ok, as I said it's primitive envy and irrational hate.

I wish Vasik and his friends all the best and stamina to survive the evil and lawyers who are on the watch to strike when the moment is right.

What are you talking about. First, there are _no_ legal issues with taking an executable, disassembling it, and then studying that. Reverse-engineering case law is clear on this point so there's no point in making stuff up.

I said that I had not taken the time to go thru the Rybka 1 binary myself, and disassemble the entire thing, located key parts, and then looked at those. I looked at what had been disassembled and and compared those pieces to Fruit. So if you are going to make statements, try to make reasonably accurate statements. As far as getting sued, anyone can feel free to sue me if they want to wast the time, the money, and expose themselves to a counter-action... Doesn't worry me one bit.

[bob]

If Bob, who has had his program cloned many times, accepts it, and Zach, who knows BB personally (a well known engine author more lately working on Go) accepts it and Ed Schroder accepts it, why are you still on the fence? What engine author is on this jury you're saying is still "out"?

Cheese and rice, man. I think you're a basically good guy but how many more engine programming experts do you require here? It's starting to look rather strange.

There is no way the YOU should be the sole gatekeeper on this issue. You simply are not qualified to judge. Bob and Ed and Zach, they have qualifications.

Matt, I am astonished. On the one hand you are right. They are all experts but on the other hand they dont know the source code of Rybka. Nobody other than Vas himself and perhaps some who have stolen the code, know it.

Since you mentioned Bob whose program was cloned. Matt, this is a totally different story because Bob knows his code and he searched until he had finally found the evidence. But Matt, he knew what he had looking for. But in the Rybka case he doesnt. In several answers to my questions he admitted that he himself didnt even studyy the code of Rybka. All he did was looking at the analyses of others. But this is something else than what he always did with Crafty clones.

So this is simply not true what you claimed.

Then CT. Have you ever seen analyses from him? Did I miss them?

The only one who gave his conclusion is Zach, but as far as I could understand the debates there was no consense about Zachs conclusions. And this is enough for me as observer. If he had had a smashing convincing stuff enough experts would agree. But not in this case.

Then finally the anonymous heroes. In modern times there is no justification for anonymity and certainly not in computerchess. I mean this alone shows for my observing eyes that crooks are hiding their evil intentions. I would completely ignore their claims. Matt, from science the case is clear. If hipo were NOT a clone from Rybka, so in other words Vas would have made untrue allegations, THEN the guys of Hipo had nothing to fear, if you know what I mean. But if they have done something not kosher THEN of course they must hide themselves because otherwise they'd be sued.

This is all so trivial, that I must wonder how a row of first class chess programmers could miss it. Even I as programming layman can make these conclusions. A second aspect is that these crooks did all their evil work just to cause harm, NOT once to compete because then they must have opened their identity. Also this is a trivial conclusion that proved the wrong of these guys. Really no need to be an expert in computerchess programming.

It is funny to watch you give lectures about something that you know _absolutely_ nothing about. It is _easier_ for the author to make the comparisons. Yes. But any competent computer scientist can compare two programs even without the source code. It is a much more time-consuming project, but it can certainly be done. So stop making random statements, unfounded in fact, or even more accurately buried in ignorance. You write a lot of stuff and say absolutely nothing on this topic.

[benstoker]

The fact is we do not know the whole story yet, and Vas has done nothing to defend himself. So maybe you should wait before using words like hate, as they are words of a fanatical zeolot protecting his masters honour. And you are far to clever for that.

Vas doesn't give a shit about this crap. Vas is crying all the way to the bank.

[Rolf]

It is funny to watch you give lectures about something that you know _absolutely_ nothing about. It is _easier_ for the author to make the comparisons. Yes. But any competent computer scientist can compare two programs even without the source code. It is a much more time-consuming project, but it can certainly be done. So stop making random statements, unfounded in fact, or even more accurately buried in ignorance. You write a lot of stuff and say absolutely nothing on this topic.

Until now my "lectures" reveiled a whole lot to the ones who know to read. I mean, isnt it telling if an expert must brag about the fact that a lay is just a lay? But then it isnt all about tech of computer sciences, but about ethics and decent style. Why do you insult me this way? I never ever tried to step onto your sacred grounds but if you accuse another collegue, the Wch, of illegal or not-kosher behaviors, it must be allowed to make a try on that matter from a different angle other than from a programmer's one.

It's trivial to see that Vas has a position that even you couldnt shatter simply because you have no point against him in legal regards. Because if you had, Vas would be away since long. The truth is that he is in no legal challenge, he's sober so to speak and that tells much about your opinions.

It's easy to see from the outside that we have here a clash of two alpha figures but there is no way that Vas could be legally challenged. So, logically he's the one with the better position. Also the superior position because Vas never ever had accused other collegues, not to speak of insults. While you even dont seperate yourself from anonymous guys. Just say one time that you dont accept anonymity of engine authors. Just once.

I am here in this forum, because I use the products you programmers are creating. And I observe if a singular programmer is scapegoated over years without a legal conclusion in the end, so that it looks as if causing a damage is a main purpose for certain people. If this is a genuine topic of computational sciences then please correct me about my naivety because from all what I know about sciences this is a completely outlandish proposition.

So, basically for me it becomes a psychological puzzle why so many high experts make themselves so low by always acting against other collegues, who are better in their results, instead of making their own products better. It's an irrational spooky and crazy scenery that I'm trying to understand.

In this general part of the forum CCC it is also about entertainment. So, also in that regard, I see no reason why it should be forbidden to reveil a background for criticism if it's always against the same individual. How come that so many outdated seniors are producing themselvess against the actual champion. How would you yourself call this? For me as a psychologist it's clear what the motives are, but what would you say as a lay? Is it because Vas is the Champion? Perhaps you can explain it because also you were attacked when you were the Champ. Is it something normal in your scene of programming?