A Question for Our Sponsor..IPPO Links OK or Not??

[bob]

It is funny to watch you give lectures about something that you know _absolutely_ nothing about. It is _easier_ for the author to make the comparisons. Yes. But any competent computer scientist can compare two programs even without the source code. It is a much more time-consuming project, but it can certainly be done. So stop making random statements, unfounded in fact, or even more accurately buried in ignorance. You write a lot of stuff and say absolutely nothing on this topic.

Until now my "lectures" reveiled a whole lot to the ones who know to read. I mean, isnt it telling if an expert must brag about the fact that a lay is just a lay?

Where do you see "bragging". I see a simple statement of fact. If you are not a brain surgeon, then you should not critique what a surgeon does. If you are not a computer scientist, then you should stay out of technical discussions that are way beyond your level of skill to participate in. It is that simple.

But then it isnt all about tech of computer sciences, but about ethics and decent style. Why do you insult me this way? I never ever tried to step onto your sacred grounds but if you accuse another collegue, the Wch, of illegal or not-kosher behaviors, it must be allowed to make a try on that matter from a different angle other than from a programmer's one.

I didn't make the original claim. But I did look carefully at the evidence presented and evaluated it on a technical (not psychological) basis. It was convincing to me. If you don't want to believe, you won't believe. Which is your right. But you only talk about emotional/psychological nonsense rather than technical evidence, which is what is needed here.

It's trivial to see that Vas has a position that even you couldnt shatter simply because you have no point against him in legal regards. Because if you had, Vas would be away since long. The truth is that he is in no legal challenge, he's sober so to speak and that tells much about your opinions.

Several have copied my program in the past. Not one was pursued for copyright infringement. I simply exposed them to expose the truth about their programs and ethics. Why would I be any different in this situation. The truth _is_ enough for some, if not all of us.

It's easy to see from the outside that we have here a clash of two alpha figures but there is no way that Vas could be legally challenged. So, logically he's the one with the better position. Also the superior position because Vas never ever had accused other collegues, not to speak of insults. While you even dont seperate yourself from anonymous guys. Just say one time that you dont accept anonymity of engine authors. Just once.

Actually he has accused others at least twice. Once for Strelka, one for IP*. Or did you forget those?

I am here in this forum, because I use the products you programmers are creating. And I observe if a singular programmer is scapegoated over years without a legal conclusion in the end, so that it looks as if causing a damage is a main purpose for certain people. If this is a genuine topic of computational sciences then please correct me about my naivety because from all what I know about sciences this is a completely outlandish proposition.

First, this has not been going on "for years". A year, maybe. If "exposing the truth" causes "damages" then that happens. But the truth comes first.

So, basically for me it becomes a psychological puzzle why so many high experts make themselves so low by always acting against other collegues, who are better in their results, instead of making their own products better. It's an irrational spooky and crazy scenery that I'm trying to understand.

I'll turn this around. Hsu and group "ruled the world of computer chess" for about 8 years. We "programmers" had no problems with that and applauded their effort. You, on the other hand, continued to attempt to damage their reputations, over and over. Or did you forget that. Several have been on top of the computer chess world and were not attacked at all, other than over the board. Slate. Thompson. Myself. Hsu. Ban. SMK. Lang. You might ask yourself what is different in this case? Duplicated code is the answer.

In this general part of the forum CCC it is also about entertainment. So, also in that regard, I see no reason why it should be forbidden to reveil a background for criticism if it's always against the same individual. How come that so many outdated seniors are producing themselvess against the actual champion. How would you yourself call this? For me as a psychologist it's clear what the motives are, but what would you say as a lay? Is it because Vas is the Champion? Perhaps you can explain it because also you were attacked when you were the Champ. Is it something normal in your scene of programming?

[Rolf]

Actually he has accused others at least twice. Once for Strelka, one for IP*. Or did you forget those?

Who are others in your books? I'm thankful for this point. How could you ever be concerned about anonymous people, you as a scientist?? Please explain this. The Strelka stuff came from allegedly a Russian that nobody knew and the other anonymous figures should be ignored by scientists anyways.

P.S. I doubt your given 1 years of the campain length. It was IMO about ca. 4 years. So that this was begun much earlier than the "analyses" from Zach. That is also what makes me wonder how this could happen.

[bob]

Actually he has accused others at least twice. Once for Strelka, one for IP*. Or did you forget those?

Who are others in your books? I'm thankful for this point. How could you ever be concerned about anonymous people, you as a scientist?? Please explain this. The Strelka stuff came from allegedly a Russian that nobody knew and the other anonymous figures should be ignored by scientists anyways.

P.S. I doubt your given 1 years of the campain length. It was IMO about ca. 4 years. So that this was begun much earlier than the "analyses" from Zach. That is also what makes me wonder how this could happen.

When I found clones of crafty, I knew _nothing_ about the authors involved. Whether they were real people or internet personnas. And I didn't care, to be honest. Again, the truth was all I wanted exposed. Didn't care about the people behind the programs at all. That took care of itself.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Actually he has accused others at least twice. Once for Strelka, one for IP*. Or did you forget those?

Who are others in your books? I'm thankful for this point. How could you ever be concerned about anonymous people, you as a scientist?? Please explain this. The Strelka stuff came from allegedly a Russian that nobody knew and the other anonymous figures should be ignored by scientists anyways.

P.S. I doubt your given 1 years of the campain length. It was IMO about ca. 4 years. So that this was begun much earlier than the "analyses" from Zach. That is also what makes me wonder how this could happen.

You are anonymous,we don't know who you are....you've been like this for more than 10 years and something,does that make you a criminal

A pest,a troll,a pain in the a$$ for sure....
Dr.D

[Rolf]

When I found clones of crafty, I knew _nothing_ about the authors involved. Whether they were real people or internet personnas. And I didn't care, to be honest. Again, the truth was all I wanted exposed. Didn't care about the people behind the programs at all. That took care of itself.

But that will explain the whole nonsense now. You are in a university but if someone sells his engine time is money for him. You could afford years for your search and then in the end even without any court cases, since you are only interested in truth. If Vas would do this along your method he would starve to death because on the net thousand of always new anons could appear and nag him.

Let me make this all clear to you:

If you take your luxury as a universal condition which it isnt really in truth and if you ignore the financial aspect (that you have your income already and therefore you must not make money on the market in any business) then I would call this unethical. Also your continual calling for evidence that Vas should better provide is such a bad thing. It is not your money that runs to the drain, your income is safe, but Vas loses his existence if he would react this way on each and every evil assault against his engine.

This is basically my point of critic against you in this topic. And I see no excuses for you because you with your intelligence should be able to understand such relationships, also if you are amateur in computerchess.

I want to mention the other unethical aspect of your position. Since you dont research what Vasiks collegues are doing in their progs you unethically outsort and scapegoat Vas a the only professional who misbehaves in your eyes. But having no insight into the other professionals. Is this sober science in your eyes??

P.S. Since you mentioned my attacks against IBM team during the match vs Kasparov let me clarify that I am 100% convinced that scientifically (with its ethics) they abused their research client Kasparov who as a human could be easily be psyched out which is what happened. But logically then their winning wasnt because DB was better but because DB was a machine that wouldnt react on any psychology from Kasparov in return. I agree with you that Kasparov therefore should never haave accepted the rules and everything of the show design. In three games with White a human has no chance to find out the weaknesses of the practically unknown black box-like machine. Ok, then he shouldnt have played at all. But if he did, the team should at least have followed the ethical rules of respect towards a client in such research.

I wouldnt open a new chapter of this debate because I know too well that you would substantiate the whole show event as a winning by all means. Why didnt they put Kasparov under drugs, so that he fell off his chair after some minutes? That would have cost them much less electricity? If I remember this right, there have been no rules in the contract that forbade the use of drugs against him either....

In summing up my criticism the lack of ethically correct treatment of the client is the point that was never addressed.

You see? Just like they ignored my criticism, Vas is ignoring yours because he has better things to do and even more important ones to survive!

[bob]

When I found clones of crafty, I knew _nothing_ about the authors involved. Whether they were real people or internet personnas. And I didn't care, to be honest. Again, the truth was all I wanted exposed. Didn't care about the people behind the programs at all. That took care of itself.

But that will explain the whole nonsense now. You are in a university but if someone sells his engine time is money for him. You could afford years for your search and then in the end even without any court cases, since you are only interested in truth. If Vas would do this along your method he would starve to death because on the net thousand of always new anons could appear and nag him.

Let me make this all clear to you:

If you take your luxury as a universal condition which it isnt really in truth and if you ignore the financial aspect (that you have your income already and therefore you must not make money on the market in any business) then I would call this unethical. Also your continual calling for evidence that Vas should better provide is such a bad thing. It is not your money that runs to the drain, your income is safe, but Vas loses his existence if he would react this way on each and every evil assault against his engine.

This is basically my point of critic against you in this topic. And I see no excuses for you because you with your intelligence should be able to understand such relationships, also if you are amateur in computerchess.

I want to mention the other unethical aspect of your position. Since you dont research what Vasiks collegues are doing in their progs you unethically outsort and scapegoat Vas a the only professional who misbehaves in your eyes. But having no insight into the other professionals. Is this sober science in your eyes??

P.S. Since you mentioned my attacks against IBM team during the match vs Kasparov let me clarify that I am 100% convinced that scientifically (with its ethics) they abused their research client Kasparov who as a human could be easily be psyched out which is what happened. But logically then their winning wasnt because DB was better but because DB was a machine that wouldnt react on any psychology from Kasparov in return. I agree with you that Kasparov therefore should never haave accepted the rules and everything of the show design. In three games with White a human has no chance to find out the weaknesses of the practically unknown black box-like machine. Ok, then he shouldnt have played at all. But if he did, the team should at least have followed the ethical rules of respect towards a client in such research.

I wouldnt open a new chapter of this debate because I know too well that you would substantiate the whole show event as a winning by all means. Why didnt they put Kasparov under drugs, so that he fell off his chair after some minutes? That would have cost them much less electricity? If I remember this right, there have been no rules in the contract that forbade the use of drugs against him either....

In summing up my criticism the lack of ethically correct treatment of the client is the point that was never addressed.

You see? Just like they ignored my criticism, Vas is ignoring yours because he has better things to do and even more important ones to survive!

Let's say ip* is an identical clone of Rybka 3. That cat is out of the bag. No way to get it back in. So what is your point? Whether the cloned engine is private, open-source or a commercial product, once it is out, it is out.

It would seem to me that a commercial author would care more about this issue than someone who distributes their source code to anyone that wants it, logically? So why has this particular author done nothing? said nothing? offered nothing?

Your point of view makes no sense to me at all.

[Rolf]

When I found clones of crafty, I knew _nothing_ about the authors involved. Whether they were real people or internet personnas. And I didn't care, to be honest. Again, the truth was all I wanted exposed. Didn't care about the people behind the programs at all. That took care of itself.

But that will explain the whole nonsense now. You are in a university but if someone sells his engine time is money for him. You could afford years for your search and then in the end even without any court cases, since you are only interested in truth. If Vas would do this along your method he would starve to death because on the net thousand of always new anons could appear and nag him.

Let me make this all clear to you:

If you take your luxury as a universal condition which it isnt really in truth and if you ignore the financial aspect (that you have your income already and therefore you must not make money on the market in any business) then I would call this unethical. Also your continual calling for evidence that Vas should better provide is such a bad thing. It is not your money that runs to the drain, your income is safe, but Vas loses his existence if he would react this way on each and every evil assault against his engine.

This is basically my point of critic against you in this topic. And I see no excuses for you because you with your intelligence should be able to understand such relationships, also if you are amateur in computerchess.

I want to mention the other unethical aspect of your position. Since you dont research what Vasiks collegues are doing in their progs you unethically outsort and scapegoat Vas a the only professional who misbehaves in your eyes. But having no insight into the other professionals. Is this sober science in your eyes??

P.S. Since you mentioned my attacks against IBM team during the match vs Kasparov let me clarify that I am 100% convinced that scientifically (with its ethics) they abused their research client Kasparov who as a human could be easily be psyched out which is what happened. But logically then their winning wasnt because DB was better but because DB was a machine that wouldnt react on any psychology from Kasparov in return. I agree with you that Kasparov therefore should never haave accepted the rules and everything of the show design. In three games with White a human has no chance to find out the weaknesses of the practically unknown black box-like machine. Ok, then he shouldnt have played at all. But if he did, the team should at least have followed the ethical rules of respect towards a client in such research.

I wouldnt open a new chapter of this debate because I know too well that you would substantiate the whole show event as a winning by all means. Why didnt they put Kasparov under drugs, so that he fell off his chair after some minutes? That would have cost them much less electricity? If I remember this right, there have been no rules in the contract that forbade the use of drugs against him either....

In summing up my criticism the lack of ethically correct treatment of the client is the point that was never addressed.

You see? Just like they ignored my criticism, Vas is ignoring yours because he has better things to do and even more important ones to survive!

Let's say ip* is an identical clone of Rybka 3. That cat is out of the bag. No way to get it back in. So what is your point? Whether the cloned engine is private, open-source or a commercial product, once it is out, it is out.

It would seem to me that a commercial author would care more about this issue than someone who distributes their source code to anyone that wants it, logically? So why has this particular author done nothing? said nothing? offered nothing?

Your point of view makes no sense to me at all.

Let me answer and then tell me what you think and not the other way round.

Of course I am a lay and cant look into the secrets of Vasik's position. But to me it looks like this:

1) Vas still has advantages with his normal prog and with the next cluster he is still number one. So, against your idea that he had done nothing, he took the consequences that he could influence. Of course this has consequences for our nice hobby.

2) The sold Rybka version is NOT (and it never was) the best possible because of the weaker HW on the PC of the users. That is why the new online Rybka has been planned. And it's a good idea since all chessplayers who want a strong aid for trainings and games will order this. All motivated players not just the super GM.

3) In consequence sport in CC is dead because without the best. Probably with all the clones that are appearing now. But no matter how hard ChessBase will try no chessplayer could use several engines together for analyses. If you want to know the truth in chess you want to have the best and not three second best.

Conclusion:

Since the community has not shown interest in fighting evil anons who tried to harm Vas, the community lost now their sport. The best engine RYBKA will become the aid for all chessplayers around the globe, the market for the other known players is dead, thanks to the cloness for free.

All that thanks to those among the experts who made shortsighted remarks against Vasik and thus defending evil cloner anons.

Certainly that wont affect the topics in your classes.

Sigh.

[bob]

When I found clones of crafty, I knew _nothing_ about the authors involved. Whether they were real people or internet personnas. And I didn't care, to be honest. Again, the truth was all I wanted exposed. Didn't care about the people behind the programs at all. That took care of itself.

But that will explain the whole nonsense now. You are in a university but if someone sells his engine time is money for him. You could afford years for your search and then in the end even without any court cases, since you are only interested in truth. If Vas would do this along your method he would starve to death because on the net thousand of always new anons could appear and nag him.

Let me make this all clear to you:

If you take your luxury as a universal condition which it isnt really in truth and if you ignore the financial aspect (that you have your income already and therefore you must not make money on the market in any business) then I would call this unethical. Also your continual calling for evidence that Vas should better provide is such a bad thing. It is not your money that runs to the drain, your income is safe, but Vas loses his existence if he would react this way on each and every evil assault against his engine.

This is basically my point of critic against you in this topic. And I see no excuses for you because you with your intelligence should be able to understand such relationships, also if you are amateur in computerchess.

I want to mention the other unethical aspect of your position. Since you dont research what Vasiks collegues are doing in their progs you unethically outsort and scapegoat Vas a the only professional who misbehaves in your eyes. But having no insight into the other professionals. Is this sober science in your eyes??

P.S. Since you mentioned my attacks against IBM team during the match vs Kasparov let me clarify that I am 100% convinced that scientifically (with its ethics) they abused their research client Kasparov who as a human could be easily be psyched out which is what happened. But logically then their winning wasnt because DB was better but because DB was a machine that wouldnt react on any psychology from Kasparov in return. I agree with you that Kasparov therefore should never haave accepted the rules and everything of the show design. In three games with White a human has no chance to find out the weaknesses of the practically unknown black box-like machine. Ok, then he shouldnt have played at all. But if he did, the team should at least have followed the ethical rules of respect towards a client in such research.

I wouldnt open a new chapter of this debate because I know too well that you would substantiate the whole show event as a winning by all means. Why didnt they put Kasparov under drugs, so that he fell off his chair after some minutes? That would have cost them much less electricity? If I remember this right, there have been no rules in the contract that forbade the use of drugs against him either....

In summing up my criticism the lack of ethically correct treatment of the client is the point that was never addressed.

You see? Just like they ignored my criticism, Vas is ignoring yours because he has better things to do and even more important ones to survive!

Let's say ip* is an identical clone of Rybka 3. That cat is out of the bag. No way to get it back in. So what is your point? Whether the cloned engine is private, open-source or a commercial product, once it is out, it is out.

It would seem to me that a commercial author would care more about this issue than someone who distributes their source code to anyone that wants it, logically? So why has this particular author done nothing? said nothing? offered nothing?

Your point of view makes no sense to me at all.

Let me answer and then tell me what you think and not the other way round.

Of course I am a lay and cant look into the secrets of Vasik's position. But to me it looks like this:

1) Vas still has advantages with his normal prog and with the next cluster he is still number one. So, against your idea that he had done nothing, he took the consequences that he could influence. Of course this has consequences for our nice hobby.

2) The sold Rybka version is NOT (and it never was) the best possible because of the weaker HW on the PC of the users. That is why the new online Rybka has been planned. And it's a good idea since all chessplayers who want a strong aid for trainings and games will order this. All motivated players not just the super GM.

3) In consequence sport in CC is dead because without the best. Probably with all the clones that are appearing now. But no matter how hard ChessBase will try no chessplayer could use several engines together for analyses. If you want to know the truth in chess you want to have the best and not three second best.

Conclusion:

Since the community has not shown interest in fighting evil anons who tried to harm Vas, the community lost now their sport. The best engine RYBKA will become the aid for all chessplayers around the globe, the market for the other known players is dead, thanks to the cloness for free.

All that thanks to those among the experts who made shortsighted remarks against Vasik and thus defending evil cloner anons.

Certainly that wont affect the topics in your classes.

Sigh.

I'll say this again, although I know it is a futile effort: I'm neither attacking Vas, nor defending the authors of IP*. Here is what is known.

(1) Parts of fruit are in Rybka 1. Regardless of the protests, that is a simple statement of fact, it is old news. Yes, the Fruit code was modified in places. Some would say enough places to qualify this as a new and original program.

(2) parts of ip* _may_ have come from Rybka 3. Based on the detailed analysis by bb+, it is quite obvious that if parts were taken from Rybka 3, they were modified significantly. _very_ significantly. And some would say that this is enough to qualify this as a new and original program.

Both cases are similar. I believe most agree that it is better to err on the side of caution, which means let both of the suspected derivatives participate until a full and complete evaluation is done to determine what if anything was copied. This has been my position with respect to the ip* program. There is some circumstantial evidence that suggests reverse-engineering. I've mentioned that many times. There is also (now) substantial evidence of significant differences between ip* and R3. We have something unclear. Vas could, in one day, post snippets of code from R3 that match code in ip* and put that claim to rest for all time, without revealing a single new idea he has come up with that is not in ip*. He's chosen to not do so. So we are left with an unclear understanding of what has happened. I am certain that every time a law enforcement officer arrests someone for murder, they are convinced that person is guilty. Fortunately, we first have a trial to prove guilt, not a trial to prove innocence. And only after that trial is some form of punishment administered. That seems like a perfectly reasonable approach here, IMHO. No need to rush to judgement. We originally arrested the ip* program by disallowing links. We eventually were forced to let it out on bond. And so far, there is nowhere near enough evidence to either convict or declare innocence.

It seems unreasonable to accept every "that's a clone" claim made with no proof. It would completely stifle computer chess development.

[Robert Flesher]

The fact is we do not know the whole story yet, and Vas has done nothing to defend himself. So maybe you should wait before using words like hate, as they are words of a fanatical zeolot protecting his masters honour. And you are far to clever for that.

Vas doesn't give a shit about this crap. Vas is crying all the way to the bank.

I am not sure the point of your post ? I hope you didn't think I was coming to the defense of Vas. ( I think most know where I stand on that issue). I just wanted to address Rolf's overly garrulous response about hate, as I believe it had nothing to do with the issue. Nothing more!

[benstoker]

The fact is we do not know the whole story yet, and Vas has done nothing to defend himself. So maybe you should wait before using words like hate, as they are words of a fanatical zeolot protecting his masters honour. And you are far to clever for that.

Vas doesn't give a shit about this crap. Vas is crying all the way to the bank.

I am not sure the point of your post ? I hope you didn't think I was coming to the defense of Vas. ( I think most know where I stand on that issue). I just wanted to address Rolf's overly garrulous response about hate, as I believe it had nothing to do with the issue. Nothing more!

I was just making a general remark. Vas really does not give one rat's ass about any of this ippo ... fruit crap that has so consumed ccc. All the best lack conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity. In any event, CODE BLUE GILL. COMMENCE OPERATION CLAMBAKE