Random Musings ...

[Milos]

No, not "it is now". It always was. Suppose Vas proved it was taken from his code. Do you think anything other than a moral decision is what would define whether one of these rating lists tested it or not?

What is the point in supposing impossible things???
Let's suppose there is a world peace, wealth and happiness, and we are in the wonderland...

[Gino Figlio]

a couple of thoughts regarding the Great Derivatives debate ..


1) Vas in an email recently posted here (with his permission )mentioned that he is not so concerned about the IPPO issue because the main testing groups and organized tournaments dont take the engines seriously(im paraphrasing here)
seems to me that both highly respected testing groups can make a real difference in the computer chess world by at least considering to test these engines or at least notifying Vas that his lack of a clear statement is forcing their hands to begin testing the engines
this just might be the push Vas needs to make a clear and concise statement about IPPO (code similarities etc etc)
i realize this is a hard decision to make but the two groups can really carry the ball here and would perhaps be performing an enormous service to the hobby

The minute the authors of a list decide to do anything in order to force someone to do something they will have made it clear their goal is not longer to test engines, and that their agenda is in fact something else.

actually i did not mean it as a blackmail attempt
i meant it as a good faith concern that the two groups have ..given this point in time
i was thinking along the lines of both groups coming together ,speaking in concert as one and contacting Vas.. asking him to consider making a public comment which can give them at least some assurance that they should not in fact be testing these engines
unless of course the groups still have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the engines
there does some to be a lack of independence "in appearance"at least if both groups simply refuse to go on testing with nothing concrete to go on at this point
maybe they have some evidence they are relying on that casual observers like myself are not privy to..i dont know


Steve

I tend to view the position a bit differently, but to each his own. On the one hand they have an engine that comes out by anonymous authors who claim they are against capitalism, aim to take from the wealthy and give to the poor, and support the Decembrists. On the other hand you have the author of a well-known engine who claims that this is another ripoff of his work, just as had taken place a couple of years before.

Strelka had all the same earmarks as Ippo: Huge similarities (search and other), but also some significant changes (bitboards and other things IIRC), again, just as here with IPPO.

By now, there are several derivatives of this source with declared authors, but these authors are still building on that shady code. It is true, neither the author of Rybka, nor the authors of Ippo have been forthcoming in detailing evidence one way or the other, so it is a judgment call. Since a similar case *has* happened in the past, and the author of Strelka admitted what he had done, there is a past record that speaks in Vas's favor. With this incomplete information, each one must do as their conscious dictates.

Vas doesn't give a shit. Why do you?

I already said why: "each one must do as their conscious dictates".

I see. It is now a question of morality, the answer resting on whether or not we feel in our bosom a pang of conscience notwithstanding Vas' complete indifference.

No, not "it is now". It always was. Suppose Vas proved it was taken from his code. Do you think anything other than a moral decision is what would define whether one of these rating lists tested it or not?

You are assuming the moral response must be protective of Rybka.
That is a big assumption.

[Milos]

btw Milos I hope you accept my nomination for you, Hetman/Hood and Norman to form the next moderation team?

I would not moderate CCC even if someone paid me. You've obviously mistaken me for Don Quixote...

[Albert Silver]

a couple of thoughts regarding the Great Derivatives debate ..


1) Vas in an email recently posted here (with his permission )mentioned that he is not so concerned about the IPPO issue because the main testing groups and organized tournaments dont take the engines seriously(im paraphrasing here)
seems to me that both highly respected testing groups can make a real difference in the computer chess world by at least considering to test these engines or at least notifying Vas that his lack of a clear statement is forcing their hands to begin testing the engines
this just might be the push Vas needs to make a clear and concise statement about IPPO (code similarities etc etc)
i realize this is a hard decision to make but the two groups can really carry the ball here and would perhaps be performing an enormous service to the hobby

The minute the authors of a list decide to do anything in order to force someone to do something they will have made it clear their goal is not longer to test engines, and that their agenda is in fact something else.

actually i did not mean it as a blackmail attempt
i meant it as a good faith concern that the two groups have ..given this point in time
i was thinking along the lines of both groups coming together ,speaking in concert as one and contacting Vas.. asking him to consider making a public comment which can give them at least some assurance that they should not in fact be testing these engines
unless of course the groups still have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the engines
there does some to be a lack of independence "in appearance"at least if both groups simply refuse to go on testing with nothing concrete to go on at this point
maybe they have some evidence they are relying on that casual observers like myself are not privy to..i dont know


Steve

I tend to view the position a bit differently, but to each his own. On the one hand they have an engine that comes out by anonymous authors who claim they are against capitalism, aim to take from the wealthy and give to the poor, and support the Decembrists. On the other hand you have the author of a well-known engine who claims that this is another ripoff of his work, just as had taken place a couple of years before.

Strelka had all the same earmarks as Ippo: Huge similarities (search and other), but also some significant changes (bitboards and other things IIRC), again, just as here with IPPO.

By now, there are several derivatives of this source with declared authors, but these authors are still building on that shady code. It is true, neither the author of Rybka, nor the authors of Ippo have been forthcoming in detailing evidence one way or the other, so it is a judgment call. Since a similar case *has* happened in the past, and the author of Strelka admitted what he had done, there is a past record that speaks in Vas's favor. With this incomplete information, each one must do as their conscious dictates.

Vas doesn't give a shit. Why do you?

I already said why: "each one must do as their conscious dictates".

I see. It is now a question of morality, the answer resting on whether or not we feel in our bosom a pang of conscience notwithstanding Vas' complete indifference.

No, not "it is now". It always was. Suppose Vas proved it was taken from his code. Do you think anything other than a moral decision is what would define whether one of these rating lists tested it or not?

You are assuming the moral response must be protective of Rybka.
That is a big assumption.

Not at all. I am not saying what is right or wrong, merely that proof is not necessarily the decider.

[Gino Figlio]

In my opinion it's very unlikely we will ever know the whole truth.

I am convinced we are not being told the whole story.
I simply don't believe ippolit was created to serve the "workers" just as I am not naive enough to believe that Rybka's author does not have time to answer questions or provide evidence to support his accusations.

Why should I as a chess enthusiast be expected to respond morally to this mess?

[Graham Banks]

..........it cant be easy on the testing group members with the current situation either
they are basically taking alot of heat for him and it would probably be appreciated and welcomed by the group's members if he would step up knowing their concerns


Steve

I agree with this part of your statement.

[Albert Silver]

In my opinion it's very unlikely we will ever know the whole truth.

I am convinced we are not being told the whole story.
I simply don't believe ippolit was created to serve the "workers" just as I am not naive enough to believe that Rybka's author does not have time to answer questions or provide evidence to support his accusations.

Why should I as a chess enthusiast be expected to respond morally to this mess?

There seems to be some confusion. I am neither suggesting, much less telling you, what you should do. I explained *my* perspective.

I do think the issue with the rating lists, as opposed to private users, is inevitably more complicated, simply because there is an implicit legitimacy lent to what is tested, that is not implied with a private user.

As to why anyone should act according to their morals in any situation, that is unconditionally not my decision to make.

[Gino Figlio]

This is a forum, if you were only interested in making personal decisions you would simply make them and stay quiet.

My opinion is that this is not a moral question. The reason being that to apply morals you have to judge a situation using your values. How can you judge something so turbid?
You can only end up with the fanatics on both sides of the argument.

[benstoker]

a couple of thoughts regarding the Great Derivatives debate ..


1) Vas in an email recently posted here (with his permission )mentioned that he is not so concerned about the IPPO issue because the main testing groups and organized tournaments dont take the engines seriously(im paraphrasing here)
seems to me that both highly respected testing groups can make a real difference in the computer chess world by at least considering to test these engines or at least notifying Vas that his lack of a clear statement is forcing their hands to begin testing the engines
this just might be the push Vas needs to make a clear and concise statement about IPPO (code similarities etc etc)
i realize this is a hard decision to make but the two groups can really carry the ball here and would perhaps be performing an enormous service to the hobby

The minute the authors of a list decide to do anything in order to force someone to do something they will have made it clear their goal is not longer to test engines, and that their agenda is in fact something else.

actually i did not mean it as a blackmail attempt
i meant it as a good faith concern that the two groups have ..given this point in time
i was thinking along the lines of both groups coming together ,speaking in concert as one and contacting Vas.. asking him to consider making a public comment which can give them at least some assurance that they should not in fact be testing these engines
unless of course the groups still have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the engines
there does some to be a lack of independence "in appearance"at least if both groups simply refuse to go on testing with nothing concrete to go on at this point
maybe they have some evidence they are relying on that casual observers like myself are not privy to..i dont know


Steve

I tend to view the position a bit differently, but to each his own. On the one hand they have an engine that comes out by anonymous authors who claim they are against capitalism, aim to take from the wealthy and give to the poor, and support the Decembrists. On the other hand you have the author of a well-known engine who claims that this is another ripoff of his work, just as had taken place a couple of years before.

Strelka had all the same earmarks as Ippo: Huge similarities (search and other), but also some significant changes (bitboards and other things IIRC), again, just as here with IPPO.

By now, there are several derivatives of this source with declared authors, but these authors are still building on that shady code. It is true, neither the author of Rybka, nor the authors of Ippo have been forthcoming in detailing evidence one way or the other, so it is a judgment call. Since a similar case *has* happened in the past, and the author of Strelka admitted what he had done, there is a past record that speaks in Vas's favor. With this incomplete information, each one must do as their conscious dictates.

Vas doesn't give a shit. Why do you?

I already said why: "each one must do as their conscious dictates".

I see. It is now a question of morality, the answer resting on whether or not we feel in our bosom a pang of conscience notwithstanding Vas' complete indifference.

No, not "it is now". It always was. Suppose Vas proved it was taken from his code. Do you think anything other than a moral decision is what would define whether one of these rating lists tested it or not?

There you go. There's a temporal and logical condition that must be satisfied before reaching the moral question.

You are mistaken. Proof is required for legality, not morality. We make moral decisions day in and day out, and they are not based on proof. They are based on what we believe. The first judge of who you are and the kind of person you are, is yourself, not others.

Oh, I see now. Whatever 'moral decision' any of us makes about Vas or ippo* has absolutely nothing to do with the proof or lack therof concerning the code pilfering. In fact, whether or not it's stolen code is now irrelevant! We don't need to know now. Because we can all make a 'moral decision' about it utterly blind to the actual TRUTH. Hooray!

[Albert Silver]

a couple of thoughts regarding the Great Derivatives debate ..


1) Vas in an email recently posted here (with his permission )mentioned that he is not so concerned about the IPPO issue because the main testing groups and organized tournaments dont take the engines seriously(im paraphrasing here)
seems to me that both highly respected testing groups can make a real difference in the computer chess world by at least considering to test these engines or at least notifying Vas that his lack of a clear statement is forcing their hands to begin testing the engines
this just might be the push Vas needs to make a clear and concise statement about IPPO (code similarities etc etc)
i realize this is a hard decision to make but the two groups can really carry the ball here and would perhaps be performing an enormous service to the hobby

The minute the authors of a list decide to do anything in order to force someone to do something they will have made it clear their goal is not longer to test engines, and that their agenda is in fact something else.

actually i did not mean it as a blackmail attempt
i meant it as a good faith concern that the two groups have ..given this point in time
i was thinking along the lines of both groups coming together ,speaking in concert as one and contacting Vas.. asking him to consider making a public comment which can give them at least some assurance that they should not in fact be testing these engines
unless of course the groups still have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the engines
there does some to be a lack of independence "in appearance"at least if both groups simply refuse to go on testing with nothing concrete to go on at this point
maybe they have some evidence they are relying on that casual observers like myself are not privy to..i dont know


Steve

I tend to view the position a bit differently, but to each his own. On the one hand they have an engine that comes out by anonymous authors who claim they are against capitalism, aim to take from the wealthy and give to the poor, and support the Decembrists. On the other hand you have the author of a well-known engine who claims that this is another ripoff of his work, just as had taken place a couple of years before.

Strelka had all the same earmarks as Ippo: Huge similarities (search and other), but also some significant changes (bitboards and other things IIRC), again, just as here with IPPO.

By now, there are several derivatives of this source with declared authors, but these authors are still building on that shady code. It is true, neither the author of Rybka, nor the authors of Ippo have been forthcoming in detailing evidence one way or the other, so it is a judgment call. Since a similar case *has* happened in the past, and the author of Strelka admitted what he had done, there is a past record that speaks in Vas's favor. With this incomplete information, each one must do as their conscious dictates.

Vas doesn't give a shit. Why do you?

I already said why: "each one must do as their conscious dictates".

I see. It is now a question of morality, the answer resting on whether or not we feel in our bosom a pang of conscience notwithstanding Vas' complete indifference.

No, not "it is now". It always was. Suppose Vas proved it was taken from his code. Do you think anything other than a moral decision is what would define whether one of these rating lists tested it or not?

There you go. There's a temporal and logical condition that must be satisfied before reaching the moral question.

You are mistaken. Proof is required for legality, not morality. We make moral decisions day in and day out, and they are not based on proof. They are based on what we believe. The first judge of who you are and the kind of person you are, is yourself, not others.

Oh, I see now. Whatever 'moral decision' any of us makes about Vas or ippo* has absolutely nothing to do with the proof or lack therof concerning the code pilfering. In fact, whether or not it's stolen code is now irrelevant! We don't need to know now. Because we can all make a 'moral decision' about it utterly blind to the actual TRUTH. Hooray!

Well, if this is the way you wish to debate, then so be it.