move interpreter vs move generator

[hgm]

With the shortcut...

Not shure what you mean by _the_ shortcut. The install ontains many shortcuts, both in the WinBoard folder and in the Windows start-menu folder. The shortcuts are in general for starting WinBoard in a particular mode, like ICC client, Fairy-Max engine, etc. To start a bare WB, you could click the executable itself.

If you get Fairy-Max as first engine when you click a shortcut, the command line in that shortcut must contain something like /fcp=fmax, or refer to an indirection ini file (through an argument @xxx.ini, which unfortunately not all Windows show when you look in the shortcut) which contains that option.

That's all I play is normal chess.

Well, good for you! So...?

Disagrees. A couple years ago, yes. Not anymore. It's been awhile since you've used Crafty? It's better than any version I've had, even without position.lrn..... just think if he'd reimplement that... and now... working on singular extentions...Whoa! Lookout!

Winboard isn't winboard without Crafty.

Winboard -> winboard engine -> Crafty, about 205kb zipped. Less than 1 second to download.

Well, so Fruit is still smaller... (180KB unzipped). But this choice _was_ made a few years ago. If I would change the installer package, which perhaps I will when we release WinBoard 4.5.x, and would adapt to the modern strength landscape, Stockfish would be the obvious choice, methinks.

Another reason not to include Crafty is that upto recently is was never very compliant with WB protocol. It was making false draw claims, and did not allow setting hash-table size and nr of CPUs through the GUI dialogs. Not really a good example of how things should work. Those aspects are much more important to me than playing strength. Not every user is interested in strength. Some are only interested in a friendly game against an opponent they can beat. I don't know if the newest versions of Crafty have solved these problem; I never use Crafty. But good implementation of WB protocol is a non-negociable requirement for inclusion.

I only use UCI engines in Chessbase.

Well, in that case, bad for you!

I do want one pre-installed WB engine and one pre-installed UCI engine, to serve as example of how they should be installed. As it happens, UCI combines well with playing strength, and WB combines better with versatility. There is no UCI engine that offers a wide range of variants.

[jhaglund]

Not shure what you mean by _the_ shortcut. The install ontains many shortcuts, both in the WinBoard folder and in the Windows start-menu folder. The shortcuts are in general for starting WinBoard in a particular mode, like ICC client, Fairy-Max engine, etc. To start a bare WB, you could click the executable itself.

create shortcut... of executable.

Brings up dialog -> 3 options.

a)engine match
b)chess server
c)view game

radial button -> engine match -> Fairy-Max
The only way I can get around that is to use a shortcut /fcp /scp etc...

or refer to an indirection ini file (through an argument @xxx.ini, which unfortunately not all Windows show when you look in the shortcut) which contains that option.

This wasn't a problem with the old gnuchess included as the default, in the old version of wb. Just change the winboard.ini and it was solved.... but doing that doesn't work for me...

Well, so Fruit is still smaller... (180KB unzipped). But this choice _was_ made a few years ago. If I would change the installer package, which perhaps I will when we release WinBoard 4.5.x, and would adapt to the modern strength landscape, Stockfish would be the obvious choice, methinks.

(shakes head).

Another reason not to include Crafty is that upto recently is was never very compliant with WB protocol. It was making false draw claims, and did not allow setting hash-table size and nr of CPUs through the GUI dialogs. Not really a good example of how things should work. Those aspects are much more important to me than playing strength. Not every user is interested in strength. Some are only interested in a friendly game against an opponent they can beat. I don't know if the newest versions of Crafty have solved these problem; I never use Crafty. But good implementation of WB protocol is a non-negociable requirement for inclusion.

No problems with Crafty here. I played 450k games, 3 games / sec. The draw claim has been fixed. That is what an .rc file is for... isn't there xboard 'cores' option???... something doesn't sound right to me, with what you claim...

Implementation would have to work with the .rc file for Crafty if you want to adjust hash stuff, NOT GUI -> straight to engine. We're suppose to use the WB protocol not the UCI. It's called Winboard for a reason... Last time I checked, there wasn't a hash option for the wb protocol...

If anything "new" was added to the protocol, it was a bad implementation. Afterall, Tim Mann & Bob worked together on that years ago... I'm now using 4.2.7 rather, because it runs the best... with no troubles.

Time to get with the program, and include Crafty.
Even Chessbase includes Crafty in their packages for free.

If you want to fix something with Winboard, add a mini delay for file output/write() when a PGN file is open/ being used.

if(save_pgn&&file_busy)
delay(); // millisecond delay with 3 tries to save to pgn file. Otherwise, expect a crash...

[hgm]

This wasn't a problem with the old gnuchess included as the default, in the old version of wb. Just change the winboard.ini and it was solved.... but doing that doesn't work for me...

Well, for me changing the winboard.ini still solves it...

Can you post the line of your winboard.ini here that starts with /firstChessProgramNames= ? Are you sure that you are editing the winboard.ini that WinBoard is actually using, and that it is not confused by some wrong registry engine to use another one somewhere else? (e.g. if you change a setting sucj as the opening book, and save the settings, do you see the new value really appear in the winboard.ini that you have been editing?

No problems with Crafty here. I played 450k games, 3 games / sec. The draw claim has been fixed. That is what an .rc file is for... isn't there xboard 'cores' option???... something doesn't sound right to me, with what you claim...

Implementation would have to work with the .rc file for Crafty if you want to adjust hash stuff, NOT GUI -> straight to engine. We're suppose to use the WB protocol not the UCI. It's called Winboard for a reason... Last time I checked, there wasn't a hash option for the wb protocol...

Well, you must have checked very long ago then... It is called 'memory'. I also do not like programs that require editing of configuration files. They give WinBoard a bad name. I would only include something where everything of importance can be set through the GUI. For that reason Gaviota would be a better choice as a WinBoard engine than Crafty, actually.

If anything "new" was added to the protocol, it was a bad implementation. Afterall, Tim Mann & Bob worked together on that years ago... I'm now using 4.2.7 rather, because it runs the best... with no troubles.

Then how can you know that the false-draw-claim problem is solved? Or in fact, that Crafty works properly with WinBoard at all?

Time to get with the program, and include Crafty.
Even Chessbase includes Crafty in their packages for free.

If you want to fix something with Winboard, add a mini delay for file output/write() when a PGN file is open/ being used.

if(save_pgn&&file_busy)
delay(); // millisecond delay with 3 tries to save to pgn file. Otherwise, expect a crash...

Isn't the C run-time system supposed to solve that? I thought that the C standard allowed you to have multiple writers to an open file.

[jhaglund]

Then how can you know that the false-draw-claim problem is solved? Or in fact, that Crafty works properly with WinBoard at all?

If you follow along, you'd see the FIDE rules and such were fixed.
It's a gimme it does. No brainer. I've used Crafty and Winboard since 1997.

Well, you must have checked very long ago then... It is called 'memory'....

Well, that's because someone didn't think of making it compatible with all the engines before implementing. Silly.

I bet Bob doesn't use a newer version of xboard, there would be no point.

I also do not like programs that require editing of configuration files. They give WinBoard a bad name.

A read/rewrite .rc file function isn't that hard to come up with...

Crafty made winboard popular IMO...

Now that we are a bit off thread topic, I think someone should try a move interpreter

[hgm]

And youw winboard.ini?

Well, that's because someone didn't think of making it compatible with all the engines before implementing. Silly.

I bet Bob doesn't use a newer version of xboard, there would be no point.

So Crafty does not qualify for inclusion with WinBoard. End of story...

A read/rewrite .rc file function isn't that hard to come up with...

Crafty made winboard popular IMO...

You seem to think WinBoard is a Craft-only GUI. The format of .rc files is not used by any engine I know, and is not part of the WB protocol specs. And I do not intend to make it such: communicating through files is a ridiculously inferior design compared to communicating through pipes. Especially if the pipes already exist...

[jhaglund]

And youw winboard.ini?

Changing the .ini works fine with the older wb...

So Crafty does not qualify for inclusion with WinBoard. End of story...

Let's vote...

You seem to think WinBoard is a Craft-only GUI. The format of .rc files is not used by any engine I know, and is not part of the WB protocol specs. And I do not intend to make it such: communicating through files is a ridiculously inferior design compared to communicating through pipes. Especially if the pipes already exist...

Crafty, the best Winboard engine around...

Books, & EGTBs seem to work fine... Arena use to read /debug files and report back... etc...

Excluding Crafty because of an after-market, bias, addition in the protocol seems ridiculously inferior to me...

I'll just have to release my own bundled package:

Winboard 5.0 features:

PGN parser.
Database.
Integrated BayElo.
Crafty v24.0 - WCCC 2012

[hgm]

Changing the .ini works fine with the older wb...

Yes, and with the new one too. That is why I doubt you actually changed it, and asked for you to post it...

Let's vote...

You can vote all you like, if that makes you happy.

Books, & EGTBs seem to work fine... Arena use to read /debug files and report back... etc...

Excluding Crafty because of an after-market, bias, addition in the protocol seems ridiculously inferior to me...

You are missing the point. The world progresses, and those who do not follow will be left behind. Standardization is progress. For a program that is still being developed it is trivial to implement the new standard, and abandon their old, ad-hoc ways. (They could even continue to support them both, if they want for backward compatibility reasons.)

In the time you spent on this discussion, you could have implemented the memory command in Crafty 10 times over.

I'll just have to release my own bundled package:

Winboard 5.0 features:

PGN parser.
Database.
Integrated BayElo.
Crafty v24.0 - WCCC 2012

Actually, that would be a whole lot more productive than abusing the illusion of democracy for trying to bully people into gettng your way. (Not as productive as fixing Crfty, of course, but at least it would be something.) I just wanted to suggest it myself. WinBoard is free and open source. Everyone is allowed to host it. You can even host WB 4.2.7, if you like that better, and bundle it with whatever you like. There are no GPL restrictions on bundling.