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Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing}
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Leon Coleman



Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 214
PostPost subject: Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing    Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:33 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Dann Corbit wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
There is some overlap with other test suites, as these positions (for instance) are also found in the Hyatt Quiet test suite:

Code:

r1b2rk1/1pq2ppp/p1p1pn2/8/1b2P3/2NQB3/PPP1BPPP/R4RK1 w - - bm Rad1; id "Hyatt-Quiet.0548"; c0 "Rad1=10 ";
r1bqk2r/5ppp/p1n1p3/1pnpP3/5P2/2N2N2/PPPQ2PP/R3KB1R w KQkq - bm Qf2; id "Hyatt-Quiet.1396"; c0 "Qf2=10 ";
r2q1rk1/pb1nbppp/1pp1pn2/3p4/2PP1B2/5NP1/PPQ1PPBP/RN1R2K1 w - - bm Nc3; id "Hyatt-Quiet.1883"; c0 "Nc3=10 ";
r2q1rk1/pp2bpp1/2npbn1p/4p3/4P3/2N2N1P/PPP1BPP1/R1BQR1K1 w - - bm Bf1; id "Hyatt-Quiet.2060"; c0 "Bf1=10 ";
r2q1rk1/pp2ppbp/3pbnp1/8/2P4Q/2N3P1/PP2PPBP/R1B2RK1 w - - bm Bxb7; id "Hyatt-Quiet.2103"; c0 "Bxb7=10 ";
r2qk2r/3bbppp/p1nppn2/1p4B1/4PP2/2N2N2/PPPQ2PP/2KR1B1R w kq - bm Bxf6; id "Hyatt-Quiet.2274"; c0 "Bxf6=10 ";
r3kb1r/1bqn1ppp/pp1ppn2/8/P2NPP2/2N1BB2/1PP3PP/R2QK2R w KQkq - bm Qe2; id "Hyatt-Quiet.2729"; c0 "Qe2=10 ";
rn1q1rk1/1b2bppp/pp1p1n2/4p3/4P3/1NN1B3/PPP1BPPP/R2Q1R1K w - - bm f3; id "Hyatt-Quiet.2941"; c0 "f3=10 ";
rnbqk2r/1p2ppb1/p2p4/6pp/3NP1n1/2N3B1/PPP1BPPP/R2QK2R w KQkq - bm Bxg4; id "Hyatt-Quiet.3821"; c0 "Bxg4=10 ";


I don't want "quiet" or "==0" type positions for testing. I want a cross-section of what I might expect to encounter in real games. Of particular interest is positions with some sort of imbalance giving both sides chances to play for a win... That is, I want positions that are not dead lost or won, but also not dead even, which you rarely see in a chess game.


These are all from real games and are all frequently played. Both sides have chances to win. They are selected because neither white nor black has a clear advantage, so the normal imbalance for white is reduced.


Bert Gower and I discovered years ago that we didn't want to steer the game toward "equal" positions out of the book. We preferred positions where the eval jumped around as the search went deeper, where we had some plusses and minuses (really equal positions are way too drawish). For example, a weak queenside pawn structure in return for some king-side attacking chances. Each side then has something to "play with" and the better evaluation and search will usually find a way to exploit its own advantage without letting the opponent take advantage of his plusses...


Most of the positions in this collection are played literally thousands of times in real games. I guess that they have chances for both sides almost all the time. However, like every other collection of starting positions, it will have some drawbacks.


Probably the best way is to mix significant imbalanced positions (static vs. dynamic, static vs. different static, dynamic vs. different dynamic) with some not so imbalanced positions (quiet?) since BOTH do occur in real games. This not only gives a more accurate feeling of which engine is stronger but it can tell where lies the more strength.

I would also test early endgame positions. Early endgame strength is also a must for analysis.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing} Dann Corbit Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:33 am
      Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Dann Corbit Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:38 am
            Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Robert Hyatt Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:43 pm
                  Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing David Dahlem Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:48 pm
                        Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Robert Hyatt Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:40 pm
                  Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Dann Corbit Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:33 pm
                        Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Robert Hyatt Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:43 pm
                              Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Dann Corbit Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:52 pm
                                    Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Miguel A. Ballicora Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:18 pm
                                          Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Dann Corbit Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:35 pm
                                                Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Peter Skinner Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:09 am
                                          Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Robert Hyatt Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:42 pm
                                    Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Leon Coleman Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:33 pm
                                          Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Werner Schüle Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:43 am
      Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Leon Coleman Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:02 am
            Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Dann Corbit Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:31 am
                  Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Leon Coleman Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:40 am
                        Re: Utterly neutral {and so theoretically useful for testing Dann Corbit Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:41 pm
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