Arena 2.4.0...

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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

Alexander Schmidt wrote:All I said is: Arena FRC support came before x-fen. So you can't blame Arena for not supporting x-fen.
This is where we have a fundamentally different opinion: Because I think we can blame Arena for not immediately switching to XFEN when it was proposed as a standard. There was no reason at all to not do it. X-FEN was identical to what Arena already did in the cases where the latter worked. It was only different for the cases where Arena failed to do it right anyway. So there were no compatibility issues with existing engines that would preclude adoptation of X-FEN by Arena many years ago. What worked would have continued to work.

I would probably still have used Shredder FEN in WinBoard, though, because UCI uses it, and engines that can read X-FEN can automatically read Shredder FEN anyway. Unless they are intentionally sabotaged not to understand them, and why would I pay attention to that? There are a zillions of other ways for authors to wreck their own engine, let them do it if they want...
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OliverUwira
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by OliverUwira »

Alexander Schmidt wrote:You cannot blame Arena for not supporting a protocol which was not even invented when Arena was released.
No, but I can blame it for not having implemented FRC properly. Without HAha you cannot represent every possible FRC position.
Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

hgm wrote:Because I think we can blame Arena for not immediately switching to XFEN when it was proposed as a standard.
So here we have a different opinion. You can't blame the autor of a free software for a missing update. In the same way I could say your engines are buggy/broken because they don't play FRC. Martin Blume did not work on Arena for a long time. So what? It's his very own decission.

Maybe he would have done the update if people would have asked for it. But I only read: "Arena is buggy and broken"
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

Engin wrote:i been never unfriendly to say what is wrong with Arena, only what i will is to help that Arena support a better FRC for most of the engine that works fine.

And of course help to fix other bugs what i see or found.

if many people says the same about that Arena dont support the right castle and FEN format for FRC, and only one and friends of the author say we will not change anything on that..... who is then guilty ?
I did not say you where unfriendly. All is fine.

Michael Diose said he does not know about the FRC format and he will forward it to Martin Blume. So let's wait until the update is released.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

Alexander Schmidt wrote:You can't blame the autor of a free software for a missing update.
I am the author of free software, and I would certainly blame myself for something like that. There is a difference between "missing an update" by a few months, and missing it by a decade...

But those who are most to blame, of course, are engine authors. They are a lazy bunch, and in stead of making a good future-proof implementation, they are happy to make a cr*ppy one relying on bugs or missing features in a cr*ppy version of a GUI they use. So that when the bug gets corrected, or other GUIs get on the market that do not suffer from the bug, it breaks their engine.

I really see no excuse for engines that support FRC to not suppot AHah notation in FEN. The fact that the only GUI in existense would not send it, is not an acceptable excuse. You know that FRC cannot do without it, so that sooner or later the GUI will be fixed, or there will be other GUIs.

Perhaps failure of an engine to support Xiangqi or Shogi could be descrbed as a bug, :wink: but certainly not FRC. It is a truly ugly (pseudo-)variant. If you are bored with normal Chess, because it has been beaten to death by opening theory, try Spartan Chess. This (just-invented) variant is a real beauty. About the same complexity as normal Chess (8x8 board, 2x16 pieces, half of which pawn-like, no pieces stronger than Queen), but only 20% draw rate (where Chess has about 32%). I can truly recommend it.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

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OliverUwira
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by OliverUwira »

hgm wrote: Perhaps failure of an engine to support Xiangqi or Shogi could be descrbed as a bug, :wink: but certainly not FRC. It is a truly ugly (pseudo-)variant. If you are bored with normal Chess, because it has been beaten to death by opening theory, try Spartan Chess.
I think it is a bit harsh to call FRC ugly. I have the good luck to live close to the Chess Tigers (organisers of the Mainz Chess Classic) who promote it extensively.

That means I have gathered quite some over-the-board experience already and enjoy being forced to be creative from move 1 onwards.

The funny thing with FRC is that on the one hand, opening theory can't help. On the other hand, however, you will find that people who evade opening theory in standard chess by playing stuff like the London systems or the King's Indian Attack are going to suffer big time in FRC because they don't know enough about other middle game structures.

And of course it forces engine programmers to come up with generic stuff instead of hard coding the trojan horse or the Bxh7 sacrifice
:lol:
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Michael Diosi
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Michael Diosi »

Hi,


Even if some of my/Chris proposals have made it into this release (aggregate view for engines, more marking stuff for moves, TLCV,...) I don't have that much influence so it is not like I say do it and Martin will do it.

At least if you have facebook you could give us a like on the Arena page, thanks. It will show me Martin that you appreciate our work and our page rank will also improve. Thanks !

Michael
http://www.playwitharena.com
Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

hgm wrote: in a cr*ppy version of a GUI they use.
OK, now I got it. Lazy engineauthors implement a feature you don't like for a crappy GUI you don't like as well. That's indeed a problem.

Looking forward to see your x-mas avatar.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

Alexander Schmidt wrote:OK, now I got it. Lazy engineauthors implement a feature you don't like for a crappy GUI you don't like as well. That's indeed a problem.
It seems you did not get it at all:

What I said was that they failed to implement a feature, not that they implemented one. A necessary feature. Which I therefore dislike to be absent...
That seems to have awfully little in common with what "you got"! It seems in fact to be the opposite in almost every way.