Arena 2.4.0...

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

hgm wrote:What I said was that they failed to implement a feature, not that they implemented one.
hgm wrote:in stead of making a good future-proof implementation, they are happy to make a cr*ppy one relying on bugs or missing features in a cr*ppy version of a GUI they use.
Alexander Schmidt wrote: engineauthors implement a feature you don't like for a crappy GUI you don't like as well.
A new try for a summary:

Arena is crap and buggy

UCI Engineauthors who first implemented the ability to play FRC in their engine are lazy and there is no excuse for that behaviour

FRC is ugly
tmokonen
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by tmokonen »

hgm wrote:If you are bored with normal Chess, because it has been beaten to death by opening theory, try Spartan Chess. This (just-invented) variant is a real beauty. About the same complexity as normal Chess (8x8 board, 2x16 pieces, half of which pawn-like, no pieces stronger than Queen), but only 20% draw rate (where Chess has about 32%). I can truly recommend it.
At the level I play at, opening theory is inexhaustible, and the draw rate is in the single digits. :)

But don't get me wrong, I do appreciate variants. I enjoy fiddling with variants in Zillions. Checkmate/fork/skewer the knights, rather than checkmate the king, is one example of a variant I've tried. Or how about Extinction Shatranj? But somehow... chess remains my favorite.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

That is already closer to the truth. That there is no excuse for being lazy is of course obvious. Note, however, that I did not say that every FRC engine author is lazy. Just the ones that did not implement proper reading of the FEN that is standard for their variant.

As for Arena, I am sure that we are not telling something new here. Not getting the position I gave above right is certainly a bad bug. I don't think there would be anyone reading here, not even the most devoted Arena fan, that would say "Wow, good feature! Let's leave it that way, and make sure FRC engines running under Arena will never be able to solve that position." Note however, that I did not criticise Arena per se. For one my statement was quite general, applying to any GUI, but on the other hand it was only referring to specific versions that contained obvious bugs.

But for FRC you are spot on: it is truly ugly. If people like it, it is only because they never seriously looked at any other variant. I have looked at many variants, so I think I am in a good position to judge this. :P
Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

hgm wrote:Not getting the position I gave above right is certainly a bad bug.
Does your engines get that position?
hgm wrote:But for FRC you are spot on: it is truly ugly. If people like it, it is only because they never seriously looked at any other variant. I have looked at many variants, so I think I am in a good position to judge this. :P
I looked at other variants and I don't like them. Standart chess is a positional game, it is some kind of art. The only problem is the huge theory. So FRC is the alternative.

Other variants are (so far) only tactical slugfests. Maybe interesting to play a few games. But in decades this variants will not become as aesthetic as regular chess.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

Alexander Schmidt wrote:Does your engines get that position?
My engines get all positions for the variants they play. I would of course not lower myself to writing an engine for something as ugly as FRC, no matter how little effort it takes to add those castling rules to my normal Chess engines. So I only wrote engines for Chess, Xiangqi, Shogi, Makruk, 10x8 Chess, Knightmate, Shatranj, Courier Chess, SuperChess, Great Shatranj, and now Spartan Chess...

How is your engine doing on that position, btw? :roll:
I looked at other variants and I don't like them. Standart chess is a positional game, it is some kind of art. The only problem is the huge theory. So FRC is the alternative.

Other variants are (so far) only tactical slugfests. Maybe interesting to play a few games. But in decades this variants will not become as aesthetic as regular chess.
Well, you know what they say: it takes time to understand the strategy of a game, and before you do any game looks more tactical than strategic. I don't know which variants you have seen, but there are many variants that are qualitatively very similar to orthodox Chess (but without opening theory). For instance Chancelor Chess or Archbishop Chess, where you replace the Queen by a nearly equally powerful piece with a different gait. Or Knightmate, where you merely swap the moves of Knight and King (two approximately equally powerful pieces) The parameters of these variants are so similar to those of orthodox Chess, that they simply must have the same tactical vs. strategic content. So what you say is simply not true, and can only stem from ignorance.
Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

hgm wrote:
Alexander Schmidt wrote:Does your engines get that position?
My engines get all positions for the variants they play.
A simple "no" would have been enough.
tomgdrums
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by tomgdrums »

hgm wrote:
Alexander Schmidt wrote:You can't blame the autor of a free software for a missing update.
I am the author of free software, and I would certainly blame myself for something like that. There is a difference between "missing an update" by a few months, and missing it by a decade...

But those who are most to blame, of course, are engine authors. They are a lazy bunch, and in stead of making a good future-proof implementation, they are happy to make a cr*ppy one relying on bugs or missing features in a cr*ppy version of a GUI they use. So that when the bug gets corrected, or other GUIs get on the market that do not suffer from the bug, it breaks their engine.
You say engine authors are a lazy bunch and yet Winboard is difficult to use and when one asks for help no help is forthcoming. Maybe you shouldn't paint your pictures with such a wide brush.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
hgm wrote:
Alexander Schmidt wrote:Does your engines get that position?
My engines get all positions for the variants they play.
A simple "no" would have been enough.
Are you still beating your wife?

A simple yes or no will do. :lol:

This is such a stale trolling trick. Who do you think you are fooling?
So you don't only want to ask the questions, now, you want to answer them for me too? The correct compact answer would of course be:

Indeed all my FRC do.
Last edited by hgm on Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hgm
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by hgm »

tomgdrums wrote:You say engine authors are a lazy bunch and yet Winboard is difficult to use and when one asks for help no help is forthcoming. Maybe you shouldn't paint your pictures with such a wide brush.
Excuse me???

When did I ever fail to provide help to someone who asked for it? When was the last time that someone reported a bug and it was not fixed within a week? Did you ever ask me for help? Do you know what you are talking about at all???
Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Arena 2.4.0...

Post by Alexander Schmidt »

hgm wrote:This is such a stale trolling trick. Who do you think you are fooling?
You call me troll?

Did I say one bad word about you, your engines, your GUI?

I did not.

You are complaining that Arena doesn't understand some positions. Positions your engines doesn't understand as well. Thats not a trick, thats fact.