BB+ on the matter

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Don
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by Don »

K I Hyams wrote:
Don wrote: So you are arguing that you made no contribution to society and you are offended when someone compliments you for doing a good job because you know that you are not really interested in their welfare other than for purely selfish reasons. I would argue that in fact you are a horrible teacher then. Perhaps you were coldly efficient in the mechanics of your job, but I cannot see how any teacher can reach the hearts and minds of their students without actually caring about them. And I don't see how you can be so proud of that fact.

I'm just really glad I did not have any teachers like you. I have fond recollections of many teachers that genuinely cared, and even after I left school they would get visits from their former students, and they always welcomed those vistis - not out of vanity but because it was obvious that they really cared. You are a horrible example of a teacher even if you had some people fooled into thinking you were well qualified.

So you are not a good example of what I am saying about teachers or people who contribute to society. The kind of people I am talking about enjoy what they do for reasons that go beyond themselves. For example teachers who teach because it gives them satisfaction to help others - not because of the paycheck.

They myth that you and others here are trying to propagate is that somehow receiving a paycheck makes every good motive go away. Some people receive a paycheck because it's the only way they can support themselves and their families. Most full time teachers could not teach unless they received a paycheck.
You do not appear to have read any Charles Dickens. If you have, it must have all gone over your head. Dickens was very adept at using “overstatement to make a point”. It is a commonly used literary device and I assumed that it was one with which you would be familiar, because most educated people are. One of our members, who is also familiar with Dickens, uses the technique frequently. Most of those to whom he addresses his comments recognise them for what they are

Whether you recognised the device or not, your post was a temper tantrum to end all temper tantrums!! Well, I didn’t expect a positive response to my post, it exposed too many faults in your arguments. However, I certainly didn’t expect you to throw your rattle out of your pram quite like that!

I wonder what your motivation was to write 4 consecutive paragraphs of irrelevant bile, unwarranted presumption and insults. One possibility is that it was an attempt to throw up a smokescreen in order to hide the fact that you had absolutely no answers whatsoever to the salient points that I made.

Whatever the reason, I have no intention of debating anything with a man who behaves like you do.
Overstatement to make a point is called "sarcasm" but I had no reason not to take you at your word.

If your response it to deny what you actually said based on some literary gimmick, then you need to stay out of this discussion - I do not want to have any kind of discussion with someone who cannot be counted on stick with what he says.

But even if what you are NOW saying is correct, are you now saying that you had something more than purely selfish reasons at heart? If you are saying that, then your argument is not valid because it implies that you cared about the people you were teaching - which implies that you were not totally selfish. But you are clearly dishonest because you resort to sarcasm to make a point that is not valid without the sarcasm - and yet then get offended. You cannot have it both ways.

Sarcasm or not, you clearly implied that you did not feel you were making any sort of contribution to society and were embarrassed when anyone else wanted to compliment you on doing a good job because they were implying that you did it for noble reasons and you knew you were not. If that is wrong, then you were not just exaggerating, you were lying outright.
Roger Brown
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by Roger Brown »

Don wrote:

[SNIP]


Sarcasm or not, you clearly implied that you did not feel you were making any sort of contribution to society and were embarrassed when anyone else wanted to compliment you on doing a good job because they were implying that you did it for noble reasons and you knew you were not. If that is wrong, then you were not just exaggerating, you were lying outright.


Good to see you in such fine form Don. What do you call someone who attributes various statements to you and cannot substantiate them in any way because the statements were untrue to start with?

Added to that, that same person refuses to acknowledge that the were incorrect in any way?

Not that I require your validation but for someone with apparently no problems in calling a perceived spade a spade, a little self-criticism and self-honesty on your part would be appreciated.

Later.
K I Hyams
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by K I Hyams »

Roger Brown wrote:
K I Hyams wrote:
[SNIP]
I wonder what your motivation was to write 4 consecutive paragraphs of irrelevant bile, unwarranted presumption and insults. One possibility is that it was an attempt to throw up a smokescreen in order to hide the fact that you had absolutely no answers whatsoever to the salient points that I made.

Whatever the reason, I have no intention of debating anything with a man who behaves like you do.


Hello K I Hyams,

Don't you dare feel at all special!!

:-)

Wait in line after me.

He accused me of saying, believing and feeling a ton of things in an earlier post.

I called him on it and the deafening silence is in itself fascinating.

I now have an a appreciation as to how some persons view with contempt and derision those who have a different view than they do. He keeps on saying he cannot take anything/anyone seriously who reasons/thinks/writes as a certain way (unlike his way in effect).

I respect his abilities as a programmer but as a person his obvious contempt for those who dare to disagree with, or even to question viewpoints he holds dear is revealing.

Those with different views are labelled with all sorts of terms but the supporters, who are no less vociferous, are curiously all logical, intelligent and morally correct.

Astonishing.

Later.
Yes, I saw the way in which he reacted to you and as you said, there are hints of a problem in other posts. With hindsight, I shouldn’t have presented it in that way. Apart from anything else, there may be a cultural issue there and anyway I didn’t make the signals clear enough. “Hindsight is a wonderful thing”. However, whatever my mistakes, his outburst was absolutely pathetic.

I was just about to press submit when I noted that he has just put in another post aimed at me. It looks bilious and so I won't even bother to read it.
bob
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by bob »

Albert Silver wrote:
mhull wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:Because you are wrong? A contribution doesn't have to be charitable (free). A contribution is when something is added.

Maybe this will help:

Etymology of Contribution
Nothing is being added in a commercial exchange, unless the exchange is intentionally generous on one side. The idea of a contribution is one of giving, not receiving or transacting business. Don suggested that his sense of what he received in the exchange was so great from his POV, that it was more a gift than a transaction. But contributions are an act of giving, not a perception of receiving. Charities seek contributions. Commercial transactions are not contributions, obviously.

I think what we are seeing is latent Rybka groupie-ism. People are/were so delighted with it (after the long reign of Shredder) that it was though the Beatles had come to town. Superlatives soon lost all meaning. Adoring fans would have mortgaged their homes to have a private audience with the greater coder to convey their thanks for the privilige of purchasing such a treasure. Anyone who doesn't wince at the thought of all the fawning Rybka posts that used to paper this forum has lost all sense of proportion and decorum.

The half-life of this syndrome seems to be long. The idea that this product is actually a great and gracious contribution to computer chess makes a mockery of the forum(s) from whence it came in the first place, where ideas were exchanged freely. But the now-sainted programmer has yet to prophesy his second advent, at which time he may deign to shine a couple of photons of his glory to illuminate the shadows wherein the benighted code grinders of CCC struggle to solve their little two-banana problems.

Saints (real ones) preserve us from such obsequious political correctness.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I commented that the word contribution is not philanthropism, but means to add, thus Rybka, which is the subject here, has added to the field.
All Rybka has _added_ is another very strong program. It has added _nothing_ to the body of science applied to computer chess. So to the users of chess engines, Rybka might have contributed something, if you twist the definition of "contribute". But the science of computer chess has received _nothing_ which I believe was the point being made. I've contributed much to computer chess. Fabien has contributed much. All the open-source authors have contributed much. All the people that have published their ideas (hsu, campbell, beal, slate, etc) have contributed much.

To say Vas has contributed is certainly a twisted definition of "contribute" since he has published _nothing_ on the subject.



Rybka FYI is not a commercial transaction, it is a chess engine, so stating that a commercial transaction is not a contribution is irrelevant. As an engine, it has added to computer chess and to chess itself.
It has added _nothing_ to "computer chess". It has added a very strong chess player to chess itself, but nothing at all to the science of computer chess.

You then go on this extremely long diatribe on groupie-ism, worshipping the programmer, and god knows what else. What on earth does any of this have to do with the term contribution not meaning obligatorily your narrow, and incorrect, definition of it as an act of charity?
It does mean to _supply_ _something_. Clearly to computer science and computer chess in particular, it has supplied _nothing_ except a strong chess engine, in the form of a "black box". So say whatever you want, but do not say it has contributed to computer chess.
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mhull
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Full name: Matthew Hull

Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by mhull »

Albert Silver wrote:It is odd that you cannot read what you yourself write, much less the dictionaries you quote from. So be it. I guess people see what they wish, even when it beats them over the head.
You scour the internet to find the tiniest snippet that might support this idea, citing a single word from an etymology, then making that the definition, ignoring the overwhelming freight and definition in modern usage.
Matthew Hull
bob
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by bob »

This is getting pretty twisted.

I have done what I have done for reasons.

(1) I enjoy chess, and more specifically computer chess. I've received a lot of enjoyment from it over the years. I have made many friends, played in lots of interesting tournaments, etc.

(2) I received lots of help from the likes of Kozdrowicki (coko), Slate and Cahlander (chess 4.x), Thompson (Belle), Greenblatt (mackhack), etc.

(3) as a result of (2) I felt it only reasonable that I make whatever I discover public, as they did with their work, in order to help others make additional progress in the field.

I do, and always have, considered it to be "shady" to take from others and return nothing at all. I have said that many times. It is not illegal. But it is a behavioural model I would not ascribe to.
Milos
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by Milos »

bob wrote:I do, and always have, considered it to be "shady" to take from others and return nothing at all. I have said that many times. It is not illegal. But it is a behavioural model I would not ascribe to.
There's absolutely nothing to add to this. That's the reasoning that should be a role model, unfortunately it's not the case in a "pragmatic" today's world...
Albert Silver
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by Albert Silver »

mhull wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:It is odd that you cannot read what you yourself write, much less the dictionaries you quote from. So be it. I guess people see what they wish, even when it beats them over the head.
You scour the internet to find the tiniest snippet that might support this idea, citing a single word from an etymology, then making that the definition, ignoring the overwhelming freight and definition in modern usage.
I didn't scour the internet. The single word is the one you are twisting to mean exclusively what you wish it to, ignoring the overwhelming freight and definition in modern usage that disagrees with you.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
Albert Silver
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by Albert Silver »

bob wrote:It does mean to _supply_ _something_. Clearly to computer science and computer chess in particular, it has supplied _nothing_ except a strong chess engine, in the form of a "black box". So say whatever you want, but do not say it has contributed to computer chess.
You are mistaken. It raised the standard. It raised the standard of ability/strength, it raised the standard of what can be achieved within a year, and it raised the standard of chess analysis. It did not add to the knowledge of the science, but not only did no one state this, but Don, Dann, and others have explicitly distinguished there are all manners of contributing that do not involve selflessness.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
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Graham Banks
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Re: BB+ on the matter

Post by Graham Banks »

bob wrote:
Albert Silver wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about. I commented that the word contribution is not philanthropism, but means to add, thus Rybka, which is the subject here, has added to the field.
All Rybka has _added_ is another very strong program. It has added _nothing_ to the body of science applied to computer chess.
It has been reverse engineered and had the resulting "code" published. Now every man and his dog that can't write an original engine of their own are using it as a base for a strong engine that they call their own.
gbanksnz at gmail.com