Split from Main Houdini Thread-other issues

[De Vos W]

Why most go to Open Chess forum now.

BT

It's a shame they don't stay there and pollute that forum with their crap instead of this one.

Banks,

Is there an individual like yourself from any other computer chess forum who goes out of his way trying to delegitimize chess engines -- posting feces picture to depict the engines?! And at one point even quiting the forum because public discussion of a new engine was allowed? I don't think so.

[kranium]

Why most go to Open Chess forum now.

BT

It's a shame they don't stay there and pollute that forum with their crap instead of this one.

Banks,

Is there an individual like yourself from any other computer chess forum who goes out of his way trying to delegitimize chess engines -- posting feces picture to depict the engines?! And at one point even quiting the forum because public discussion of a new engine was allowed? I don't think so.

Peter, Graham, Albert, and others-

Software development is not analogous to sitting at a typewriter in Cuba and sipping rum while a Hemmingway novel flows from your fingertips (regardless of what Bob would have you believe).

Programmers/developers (like other scientists) build on the 'collective' wisdom of those before them. Crafty, Fruit, Ippolit, Stockfish, etc. are all part of that.
Houdini, Rybka, Strelka, Fire, Toga, Cyclone, Demon, Grapefruit, etc. etc. etc. are as well, and are here to stay whether you like it or not.

This forum was (at least partly) founded by a University level 'academic', with an overly strong focus on identifying and preventing copying and the re-use of 'ideas'...and we all know that Crafty is the only ‘truly original’ program?, as Professor Hyatt often points out.

It's sad to see that you have aligned yourself so strongly with this repressive and strict ‘classroom’ ideal.
Of course, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.

But it’s offensive that you and others (to whom I like to refer to as the Talkchess ‘good old boys’) go much further…and have independently decided to take a 'morally superior' posture while imposing and enforcing ‘your’ narrow-minded values upon everyone else.

Especially reprehensible is the penchant to attack/accuse/ridicule and insult any/all who disagree with you.

Lastly, ridiculous and sad, but true…
currently we have a small group of amateur non-technical non-programmers (CCRL, CEGT, and other testing lists) who are ‘vetting’ releases and dictating to the membership and community at large which engines are acceptable and which are not…?
(while at the same time they belligerently defend Rybka...clearly the biggest offender of all!?)

It’s ludicrous.

[kranium]

Lastly, ridiculous but true…
currently we have a small group of amateur non-technical non-programmers (CCRL, CEGT, and other testing lists) who are ‘vetting’ releases and dictating to the membership and community at large which engines are acceptable and which are not…?

It's ludicrous.

Dictating? I thought all readers here were adults who are able to form their own opinion and do not let them be dictated.

By 'dictating' I mean abusing positions of power and exerting undue influence...

Ridiculous but true:

We have a large group of professional technical programmers who are unable to tell us amateur non-technical non-programmers which engines are acceptable and which are not. They can't decide themselves, they have been quarreling for years (!) now, and some of them even expects the non-technicals to make an intelligent decision.

Yes, it's ludicrous.

You have a valid point.
Therefore I suggest: test them all and allow the 'adults' to decide (without any undue influence...)

[zullil]

Programmers/developers (like other scientists) build on the 'collective' wisdom of those before them.

This is indisputable. A scientist may study and extend the work of others, provided he makes his contribution clear and cites his sources. He may not plagiarize.

Note that my response requires at least two things:

1) A code that defines what one may or may not do.

2) A means of determining when one has "crossed the line" between studying and plagiarizing.

[kranium]

By 'dictating' I mean abusing positions of power and exerting undue influence...

We publish lists and anybody can choose to read them or not. There is no obligation there, so no power either.
There is influence of course. If you know which newspaper I read it can make you buy the same. That can't be helped, actually it is your choice, not mine.

Pretty difficult to make an educated decision if the 'newspaper' as you put it, is secreted away out of public view in a hidden sub-forum of the 'world's premier' chess forum (if i may paraphase SteveB)...

Isn't Graham Banks is one of the 'founding members' of the CCRL...?
Therefore, I cite the debacle of his CCC moderation history (with which we are all too familiar), as a prime example of the CCRL and 'CCC good old boys' abusing positions of power and exerting undue influence.

[kranium]

We publish lists and anybody can choose to read them or not. There is no obligation there, so no power either.
There is influence of course. If you know which newspaper I read it can make you buy the same. That can't be helped, actually it is your choice, not mine.

Gabor-

Do you support Grahams previous moderation efforts...?
especially concerning the creation, support, and enforcement of the hidden non-public 'Engine Origins' forum to which any/all IppoLit threads (including testing results) are now incarcerated?

Sadly, thanks to Graham and others here, the vast majority of CCC visitors (non-members) could not read the 'newspaper' during the last year or so, they had little choice about the matter.
Even today there's little information with which to make an 'adult' decision...mainly due to rampant CCC/CCRL bias and censorship.

[tomgdrums]

We publish lists and anybody can choose to read them or not. There is no obligation there, so no power either.
There is influence of course. If you know which newspaper I read it can make you buy the same. That can't be helped, actually it is your choice, not mine.

Gabor-

Do you support Grahams previous moderation efforts...?
especially concerning the creation, support, and enforcement of the hidden non-public 'Engine Origins' forum to which any/all IppoLit threads (including testing results) are now incarcerated?

Sadly, thanks to Graham and others here, the vast majority of CCC visitors (non-members) could not read the 'newspaper' during the last year or so, they had little choice about the matter.
Even today there's little information with which to make an 'adult' decision...mainly due to rampant CCC/CCRL bias and censorship.

The tone of your posts has helped me to make my decision.

[Steve B]

We publish lists and anybody can choose to read them or not. There is no obligation there, so no power either.
There is influence of course. If you know which newspaper I read it can make you buy the same. That can't be helped, actually it is your choice, not mine.

Gabor-

Do you support Grahams previous moderation efforts...?
especially concerning the creation, support, and enforcement of the hidden non-public 'Engine Origins' forum to which any/all IppoLit threads (including testing results) are now incarcerated?

Sadly, thanks to Graham and others here, the vast majority of CCC visitors (non-members) could not read the 'newspaper' during the last year or so, they had little choice about the matter.
Even today there's little information with which to make an 'adult' decision...mainly due to rampant CCC/CCRL bias and censorship.

The tone of your posts has helped me to make my decision.

we have received several complaints already about the last few posts in the Houdini main thread
i have split the thread and left this thread in the General forum ..
there are issues being discussed having nothing to do with Houdini but are germane regarding the testing groups and moderation in general
please use this thread and not the main Houdini thread for all issues unrelated to the Engines release

[Steve B]

We publish lists and anybody can choose to read them or not. There is no obligation there, so no power either.
There is influence of course. If you know which newspaper I read it can make you buy the same. That can't be helped, actually it is your choice, not mine.

Gabor-

Do you support Grahams previous moderation efforts...?
especially concerning the creation, support, and enforcement of the hidden non-public 'Engine Origins' forum to which any/all IppoLit threads (including testing results) are now incarcerated?

Sadly, thanks to Graham and others here, the vast majority of CCC visitors (non-members) could not read the 'newspaper' during the last year or so, they had little choice about the matter.
Even today there's little information with which to make an 'adult' decision...mainly due to rampant CCC/CCRL bias and censorship.

i will add my two cents in here ..
as to the creation of the EO forum
while i was not a moderator at the time ..my understanding is that the creation of this forum was not Graham's idea alone but rather a compromise that was reached by Graham..the other Mods and the TCADMIN..
who exactly came up with the idea first i couldn't say and i dont think is important really
this was done in an effort to appease all 3 moderators who were all on the verge of quitting or threatening to quit ..Graham too was ready to resign before the compromise was reached..and all this after one moderator had resigned already
i have no reason to believe otherwise and i believe this to be the case now

as to the EO being readable only to members
i have stated from the getgo i have no problem with this as i really dont care about unregistered lurkers
every single forum and sub-forum here is available to everyone that is a member
unlike another CC board ..we dont have arbitrary minimum posting requirements that enable some members to gain access to special forums ..which IMHO sets up two classes of membership
here..if you are a member ..even on the first day of membership..you can go anywhere

Regards
Steve

[kranium]

unregistered lurkers

you mean like a 'peeping tom'?


i'm with you there Steve, there's no excuse! this is a respectable forum!
bunch of no good for nothings is what they are!