Houdini 1.5a bug ...

[Houdini]

Hello,

I have some problems to use Houdini 1.5(a) for SWCR Champions-League 2011. I made a configuration without GaviotaBases. On two of my Q9550 systems all works fine (v. 1.5a need only a longer time for loading) on two others comes the message:

This engine ins't an UCI engine!
Engine can't load.

Very crazy!

This error I have on two different Q9550 systems under Windows Professional x64 Edition with the x64 version and the w32 of Houdini 1.5a.

Frank,

Which GUI gives you the "This engine isn't an UCI engine" message?
Does it occur only with Houdini 1.5a or also with version 1.5?
Does it occur with or without Gaviota tablebases?
Do you see any obvious differences between the two computers that work and the two that don't?

Robert

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi there,

I try out ...

Houdini 1.5a
version from January 15th, 2011

In text mode!
It need around 40 seconds if I can see the message:

info string 128 MB Hash
With go Houdini started!

Now the same with Houdini 1.5 ...

Houdini 1.5
version from December 15th, 2010

info string 128 MB Hash
I see it after one second!
All works directly, no problem to config the engine under F11 and Shredder Classic 4 GUI on all of my systems.

Houdini 1.5
version from December 19th, 2010

The same problem I have with version 1.5a !!
it need around 30-40 seconds I see the "info string 128 MB Hash" message.

That's interesting!
I try out to config the version from December 19th, 2010 on both machines I have problems under F11 and Shredder Classic 4 GUI. The same ... this isn't an UCI engine!

Have nothing to do with GaviotaBases ...

I read what Robert wrote to the version from December 19th, 2010

- large page support (works both in 64-bit and 32-bit Windows)

I think this one could be a problem with two of my 4 Q9550 SWCR sysems! I don't know ...

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Robert,

at first:
Please have a look in my other message I wrote for minutes.

1. Houdini 1.5 (December 15th, 2010 ... works fine, no problems here)

2. Houdini 1.5 (December 19th, 2010 ... here I have problems on two of my four SWCR Q9550 systems).

3. Houdini 1.5a (Janaury 15th, 2011 ... here I have problems on two of my four SWCR Q9660 systems).

I try out both versions which make problems under Shredder Classic 4 and Fritz 11 GUI. Both GUIs can't load the engine.

I try out with and without Gaviota tablebase directory.
Same problem, nothing to do with Gaviota tablebase directoy.

I wrote in the message before that I believe the engine have a problem in "time for loading". It need around 30-40 second if I can see the message ...

init string file 128 MB hash (if I start in textmode).
With go the engine works.

So I am sure that the message from GUIs (not an uci engine) comes because Houdini 1.5a / Houdini 1.5 19th, 2010 need to many time for loading.

Only with the UCI parameter under Shredder Classic GUI ...
UCITimeout=45 (parameter not possible under Fritz GUI)

I can start Houdini 1.5a and Houdini 1.5 from 19th, 2010 under Shredder GUI. But not after each start. I need a second or third start or better sometimes your engine is loading sometimes not (with parameter UCITimeout=45 under Shredder Classic 4 GUI).

What I can't understand is that on two other machines all works fine (all my four systems have the same processor, same / identical configuration ... Intel Q9550).

9 services are loading on all of the network Q9550 system under Windows XP Professional x64 Edition. No software is loading in background. Its more or less a max. power configuration for my SWCR machines.

Hint:
No problems with all other engines I used for SWCR in loading engines!

Really crazy!

Best
Frank

It's possible that Houdini 1.5 need since version 1.5 December 19th, 2010 an special services with comes from OS?

[Houdini]

Frank,

Your analysis is probably correct, the difference most likely comes from the Large Page support.
Houdini calls a couple of functions that are related to the Large Page API, but only when the installed Windows supports these.

Let's try to establish more in detail what is going on, here 3 more questions:

1) Did you activate the Large Page support in your OS, via the Local Policies of your security settings, see http://www.cruxis.com/chess/houdini.htm#Large_Pages? On all 4 computers the same?

2) Is there any CPU usage or hard disk activity during the 40 second wait at start-up?

3) Are your Windows installations up-to-date with all recommended "Windows Updates" installed? Can you see any difference between the two working computers and the two with the problem?

Robert

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Robert,

1. No, I never activate Large Pages in OS. No user accouts, only one administrator accout. But I read that this one isn't enough. I activate Large Pages now and ...

IT WORKS !!
On both PCs I had the problems!

One idea why on my two other PCs Houdini 1.5a working directly without I activate "large pages". I can see only one reason for it.

2x NVidia grafics (the PCs without the problems)
1x ATI grafic (large pages ins't activate)
1x Intel onBoard grafic (large pages isn't activate)

On the PCs with NVidia grafics large pages is activate. I never do this by hand on one of the PCs. The grafic driver could be the reason I think, no other idea I have so far!

2. No
But not important, problem is solved with point 1.

3. No
Latest windows updates I made around October 2010. All the services are deactivated. I update the systems 2-3x in the year and activate the services I need for windows update.

But not important, problem is solved with point 1.

I had in my brain that "Large Pages" is an option for the newer Intel i3, i5, i7 processors only. So I never read more about it. My mistake, today I learned a lot.

With other words ...
Nobody is perfect ...

Robert what can I say?
Problem solved, have THANKS !!

Best
Frank

I will stop the still running round 2 group 9 in SWCR Champions-League and will start all Houdini matches again with version 1.5a !!
I lost some hours and 3 games but this isn't important!

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Robert,

OK, I have it now on all PCs.
It works fine, no problem with version 1.5a and version 1.5 from December 19th, 2010.

In SWCR-64 i played the 1.000 games with version 1.5 from 15th, December 2010.

I restart Champions-League 2011 round 2 group 9.
Three games ended before with Version 1.5 from 15th, December 2010.

2x remis vs. Deep Fritz 12
1x won vs. Deep Fritz 12
games deleted!

Now Version 1.5a is playing!
I wrote on SWCR Champions-League 2011 page, updates during the tournament are possbile. The update comes before I start Round 2 Group 9 so I should do that

Your description to "Large Pages" on your site is perfect.
OK, OK, I should read what I use but I am sure nobody do that in detail! To many material for all the engines!

Thanks again!

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Robert,

sorry again!

You made a perfect service!
I set a message about it in my Actual page.

Best
Frank

[bob]

Hi Robert,

1. No, I never activate Large Pages in OS. No user accouts, only one administrator accout. But I read that this one isn't enough. I activate Large Pages now and ...

IT WORKS !!
On both PCs I had the problems!

One idea why on my two other PCs Houdini 1.5a working directly without I activate "large pages". I can see only one reason for it.

2x NVidia grafics (the PCs without the problems)
1x ATI grafic (large pages ins't activate)
1x Intel onBoard grafic (large pages isn't activate)

On the PCs with NVidia grafics large pages is activate. I never do this by hand on one of the PCs. The grafic driver could be the reason I think, no other idea I have so far!

2. No
But not important, problem is solved with point 1.

3. No
Latest windows updates I made around October 2010. All the services are deactivated. I update the systems 2-3x in the year and activate the services I need for windows update.

But not important, problem is solved with point 1.

I had in my brain that "Large Pages" is an option for the newer Intel i3, i5, i7 processors only. So I never read more about it. My mistake, today I learned a lot.

With other words ...
Nobody is perfect ...

Robert what can I say?
Problem solved, have THANKS !!

Best
Frank

I will stop the still running round 2 group 9 in SWCR Champions-League and will start all Houdini matches again with version 1.5a !!
I lost some hours and 3 games but this isn't important!

Something seriously wrong. No way a program can tell whether it is using large pages or not, and no way that makes any difference in how it executes, except for possibly fewer TLB misses. This sounds like a program bug that large pages hides, because with large pages, you can slightly overstep an array bound without having a problem, where for small pages, you might step far enough to go outside the page being referenced and cause an access violation.

Any program should run normally with either page size, just perhaps a little bit faster with large pages.... Should have zero effect on crashing, however...

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Bob,

the problem I had was not a crash.

The Houdini 1.5 version December 19th, 2010 and 1.5a version need a lot ot time for loading. Easy to see if I start the two engines in textmode. To long, to many time the program need for a configuration as UCI engine under Fritz 11 and Shredder 12 GUIs. So the "error" message ... isn't a UCI engines comes from GUI.

Now I activated "Large Pages" and both versions started directly after milliseconds.

At the moment I try to find out why I have on 2 of my 4 SWCR Quad Q9550 system the problem on an fifth Q9550 system. Yes, it was the grafic driver from NVidia.

Easy ...
I made a complete new test installation on my fifth Q9550 system with NVidia grafic card (only OS Windows XP Professional x64 SP2 with my own update pack up to Oct. 2010 without driver other programs, I changed no windows settings). I started Houdini 1.5a in textmode and the program need around 30 seconds for starting. Now I install the NVidia grafic driver started Houdini 1.5a and Houdini works fine, started after milliseconds!

I know, absolutley "crazy" but no other reason make sense. Perhaps I should test the update pack I made in self work (actual Windows updates up to October 2010 after SP2 as update pack).

All four SWCR Q9550 systems have the same configuration, same installed programs. Only differents in hardware and different drivers for it ...

1. Motherboard
2. RAM
3. Grafic card

The two systems I had the problems have A. Intel onBoad grafic (Intel system board) and B. an ASUS motherboard with ATI grafic card. This two systems have the problems. The systems with NVidia grafics had no problems.

But the problem is solved!
After all what I try here ... to 90% sure now that the reason is the NVidia grafic driver!

Best
Frank

[bob]

Hi Bob,

the problem I had was not a crash.

The Houdini 1.5 version December 19th, 2010 and 1.5a version need a lot ot time for loading. Easy to see if I start the two engines in textmode. To long, to many time the program need for a configuration as UCI engine under Fritz 11 and Shredder 12 GUIs. So the "error" message ... isn't a UCI engines comes from GUI.

Now I activated "Large Pages" and both versions started directly after milliseconds.

At the moment I try to find out why I have on 2 of my 4 SWCR Quad Q9550 system the problem on an fifth Q9550 system. Yes, it was the grafic driver from NVidia.

Easy ...
I made a complete new test installation (only OS Windows XP Professional x64 SP2 with my own update pack up to Oct. 2010 without driver other programs, i changed no windows settings). I started Houdini 1.5a in textmode and the program need around 30 seconds for starting. Now I install the NVidia grafic driver started Houdini 1.5a and Houdini works fine, started after milliseconds!

I know, absolutley "crazy" but no other reason make sense. Perhaps I should test my update pack I made in self work (actual Windows updates up to October 2010 after SP2).

All four systems have the same configuration, same installed programs. Only differents in ...

1. Motherboard
2. RAM
3. Grafic card

The two systems I had the problems have Intel onBoad grafic (Intel system board) and on an other with an ASUS board I am using an ATI grafic card. This both systems have the problems. The systems with NVidia grafics had no problems.

But the problem is solved!
After all what I try here ... absolutly sure now that the reason is the NVidia grafic driver!

Best
Frank

I would expect the opposite behaviour. Allocating large pages often requires freeing up lots of small pages to build that large page, which is usually slower, rather than faster...