Chan Rasjid wrote:I think you are correct. The issue that causes dispute is about re-writes that need not involve any cut-and-paste. A re-write of Fruit from mailbox to bitboard could have copyright issue. I did try to search for some expert articles to clarify the issue, but there was none that directly addresses what is at dispute here.
Don't you think the FSF might be a little bit less clueless than we are on this matter?
Fabien.
FSF surely has legal consultants and technical experts, but they don't post here. Rybka might be too small and insignificant a case for them to take notice unless there are complaints brought to their attention.
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:If this is another way of saying "what about gathering all the data Zach, Bob, BB and others gathered, comparing them to Vasik's statements, forming an opinion about what likely happened and then asking the FSF if something can or should be done about it?".
1 At the time when you had contact with the computerchess scene for the last time, was there any form of contact either via direct talking or via email or postal messages betweenyou and Vas? If yes, was this about a sort of agreement from your side if Vas would have wanted to use some of your ideas and or code - since at the time you might have signaled your wish to let it all behind and leave the scene?
2 Did you imply with your first message few days ago that you really had no contact nor knowledge of anything from CC for about 5 years until "yesterday" as you wrote when you took a look for the first time (in 5 years)? Where did you live then? Top secret military institution, please could you give us some details about that, because it looks so suspicious.
3 Talking about the real reality. Do you see a difference in the open and known reputation of Vasik Rajlich, who was with you attenting some World Championships and totally obsure figures like the strawmen behind the "hippo" cosa and now some hidden Houdini magician?? When you stepped into it yesterday or a day before, did you consider the probability for some legal issues from that aspect? Are you familiar with the law problem especially in Russia considering the Strelkas?
Since I'm not at all an expert in CC I must tell you that it would be strange if I would now discuss anything with you. My interest came from psychology. I wished that I could inspire a debate about the given points. Thanks for now.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
michiguel wrote:
In the data you sent me before, Glaurung is closer to Fruit than R1 or Strelka to Fruit, which makes me doubt of the "stylistic" relationship between R1 or S to F. In Adam's data and Michael Hart's, when they included more engines, the relation between S and F fell apart. More engines got in between (but I am saying this without checking details). I always saw distinct branches.
Of course, this does not mean absence of cloning or confirmation of it (the material tables may be a dominant factor in changing the "style" of the engine) but I am not sure we can say Strelka's style is close to Fruit more than Glaurung's.
It is very clear, Strelka's "style" is w/o question Rybka's.
Miguel
Using my data, in your tree (not the dendrite), Fruit appears as an isolated engine, which, I am sorry to say, is unlikely, Fruit being an inspiration to many. We are using different clustering methods, for now I trust my graph better, all obvious things are confirmed, and there are some surprises too (you know ).
Disregarding this,
The fact is, my point (1) stands, _therefore_ it is up to Fabien to make claims about the relation between Strelka and Fruit (with implications on Rybka 1.0 Beta).
Kai
Kai, I think you maybe saying " all obvious things are confirmed" is a bit
premature.
I created a dendrogram from my data using Systat. I used the same
engines that you used ( except for Shredder 10 and 12 ). Complete
linkage and normalized Euclidean distance.
Looks alot like yours, maybe Fruit and Rybka 1.0 Beta/Strelka not quite
as close as your data, but no big difference I think.
Then I added 10 more engines.
Rybka 3 and Houdini/Ivanhoe are now closer than Fruit and Rybka 1.0
Beta/Strelka.
Thanks Adam, the first graph looks a lot like mine. It's also true that adding a lot of Fruitsih 2.1 close derivatives like Toga, etc. and Rybkish 1.0 like Rybka 2, etc. scrambles the upper lineages. I may include some to show that your second graph is also correct. But I would intuitively pay more attention to the first graph, because I am not quite so interested in Rybka 1,2,3,4 obvious lineage, which will scramble Rybka 1 - Fruit 2.1 relation (Rybka 4 being a totally different animal). I even might suppress some of the over-represented Ippos in my graph. This is an art-science what we are doing, but it's at least instructive .
1 At the time when you had contact with the computerchess scene for the last time, was there any form of contact either via direct talking or via email or postal messages betweenyou and Vas? If yes, was this about a sort of agreement from your side if Vas would have wanted to use some of your ideas and or code - since at the time you might have signaled your wish to let it all behind and leave the scene?
2 Did you imply with your first message few days ago that you really had no contact nor knowledge of anything from CC for about 5 years until "yesterday" as you wrote when you took a look for the first time (in 5 years)? Where did you live then? Top secret military institution, please could you give us some details about that, because it looks so suspicious.
3 Talking about the real reality. Do you see a difference in the open and known reputation of Vasik Rajlich, who was with you attenting some World Championships and totally obsure figures like the strawmen behind the "hippo" cosa and now some hidden Houdini magician?? When you stepped into it yesterday or a day before, did you consider the probability for some legal issues from that aspect? Are you familiar with the law problem especially in Russia considering the Strelkas?
Since I'm not at all an expert in CC I must tell you that it would be strange if I would now discuss anything with you. My interest came from psychology. I wished that I could inspire a debate about the given points. Thanks for now.
It is at this point here that I would like to wish you all good luck......
1 At the time when you had contact with the computerchess scene for the last time, was there any form of contact either via direct talking or via email or postal messages betweenyou and Vas? If yes, was this about a sort of agreement from your side if Vas would have wanted to use some of your ideas and or code - since at the time you might have signaled your wish to let it all behind and leave the scene?
2 Did you imply with your first message few days ago that you really had no contact nor knowledge of anything from CC for about 5 years until "yesterday" as you wrote when you took a look for the first time (in 5 years)? Where did you live then? Top secret military institution, please could you give us some details about that, because it looks so suspicious.
3 Talking about the real reality. Do you see a difference in the open and known reputation of Vasik Rajlich, who was with you attenting some World Championships and totally obsure figures like the strawmen behind the "hippo" cosa and now some hidden Houdini magician?? When you stepped into it yesterday or a day before, did you consider the probability for some legal issues from that aspect? Are you familiar with the law problem especially in Russia considering the Strelkas?
Since I'm not at all an expert in CC I must tell you that it would be strange if I would now discuss anything with you. My interest came from psychology. I wished that I could inspire a debate about the given points. Thanks for now.
It is at this point here that I would like to wish you all good luck......
Better make some more popcorn.
Chris
Bingo.
Who wants to bet how long will it take until someone accuses Fabien for not being "a real person"?
1 At the time when you had contact with the computerchess scene for the last time, was there any form of contact either via direct talking or via email or postal messages betweenyou and Vas? If yes, was this about a sort of agreement from your side if Vas would have wanted to use some of your ideas and or code - since at the time you might have signaled your wish to let it all behind and leave the scene?
2 Did you imply with your first message few days ago that you really had no contact nor knowledge of anything from CC for about 5 years until "yesterday" as you wrote when you took a look for the first time (in 5 years)? Where did you live then? Top secret military institution, please could you give us some details about that, because it looks so suspicious.
3 Talking about the real reality. Do you see a difference in the open and known reputation of Vasik Rajlich, who was with you attenting some World Championships and totally obsure figures like the strawmen behind the "hippo" cosa and now some hidden Houdini magician?? When you stepped into it yesterday or a day before, did you consider the probability for some legal issues from that aspect? Are you familiar with the law problem especially in Russia considering the Strelkas?
Since I'm not at all an expert in CC I must tell you that it would be strange if I would now discuss anything with you. My interest came from psychology. I wished that I could inspire a debate about the given points. Thanks for now.
It is at this point here that I would like to wish you all good luck......
Better make some more popcorn.
Chris
Get me a Beer, Its about to start!
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers
1 At the time when you had contact with the computerchess scene for the last time, was there any form of contact either via direct talking or via email or postal messages betweenyou and Vas? If yes, was this about a sort of agreement from your side if Vas would have wanted to use some of your ideas and or code - since at the time you might have signaled your wish to let it all behind and leave the scene?
2 Did you imply with your first message few days ago that you really had no contact nor knowledge of anything from CC for about 5 years until "yesterday" as you wrote when you took a look for the first time (in 5 years)? Where did you live then? Top secret military institution, please could you give us some details about that, because it looks so suspicious.
3 Talking about the real reality. Do you see a difference in the open and known reputation of Vasik Rajlich, who was with you attenting some World Championships and totally obsure figures like the strawmen behind the "hippo" cosa and now some hidden Houdini magician?? When you stepped into it yesterday or a day before, did you consider the probability for some legal issues from that aspect? Are you familiar with the law problem especially in Russia considering the Strelkas?
Since I'm not at all an expert in CC I must tell you that it would be strange if I would now discuss anything with you. My interest came from psychology. I wished that I could inspire a debate about the given points. Thanks for now.
Some of the question i had also but thought i would wait for you
to ask them.
Welcome back and let the process continue.
1 At the time when you had contact with the computerchess scene for the last time, was there any form of contact either via direct talking or via email or postal messages betweenyou and Vas? If yes, was this about a sort of agreement from your side if Vas would have wanted to use some of your ideas and or code - since at the time you might have signaled your wish to let it all behind and leave the scene?
2 Did you imply with your first message few days ago that you really had no contact nor knowledge of anything from CC for about 5 years until "yesterday" as you wrote when you took a look for the first time (in 5 years)? Where did you live then? Top secret military institution, please could you give us some details about that, because it looks so suspicious.
3 Talking about the real reality. Do you see a difference in the open and known reputation of Vasik Rajlich, who was with you attenting some World Championships and totally obsure figures like the strawmen behind the "hippo" cosa and now some hidden Houdini magician?? When you stepped into it yesterday or a day before, did you consider the probability for some legal issues from that aspect? Are you familiar with the law problem especially in Russia considering the Strelkas?
Since I'm not at all an expert in CC I must tell you that it would be strange if I would now discuss anything with you. My interest came from psychology. I wished that I could inspire a debate about the given points. Thanks for now.
Your first post here and with such disrespect and arrogance. IMO, I think mods should ban you and not allow you to come back here.
).
