bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Laskos wrote:Funny, every literary text is enumerable...
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Not that i think this argument has much import... but my hunch is the reason chess games *are* numerable, while prose is not, is that all chess games must end - because of repetition, or the 50 move rule. Texts (and mindless chess forums for that matter), can go on forever.
Laskos wrote:Funny, every literary text is enumerable...
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Not that i think this argument has much import... but my hunch is the reason chess games *are* numerable, while prose is not, is that all chess games must end - because of repetition, or the 50 move rule. Texts (and mindless chess forums for that matter), can go on forever.
Human chess is not enumerable, to start with. The enforcement of those rules are not mandatory. Moreover, to be pedantic, you can even have illegal moves and if nobody claimed them as such, they stay in the board.
In addition, the time consumed for each move is an intrinsic part of the game. So, if they are relayed, it changes the meaning of the score (was this in time trouble or not?).
Moreover, even if two scores are identical, the two players could be different changing completely the meaning. Look at the famous games between Soviets and Argentinians in Goteborg (1955?). The scores ended up being different... but they could have been the same. Moves were not played at the same time.
I agree with Kai. I think the scores should not be copyrighted, but for other reasons.
Laskos wrote:Funny, every literary text is enumerable...
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Not that i think this argument has much import... but my hunch is the reason chess games *are* numerable, while prose is not, is that all chess games must end - because of repetition, or the 50 move rule. Texts (and mindless chess forums for that matter), can go on forever.
Human chess is not enumerable, to start with. The enforcement of those rules are not mandatory. Moreover, to be pedantic, you can even have illegal moves and if nobody claimed them as such, they stay in the board.
In addition, the time consumed for each move is an intrinsic part of the game. So, if they are relayed, it changes the meaning of the score (was this in time trouble or not?).
Moreover, even if two scores are identical, the two players could be different changing completely the meaning. Look at the famous games between Soviets and Argentinians in Goteborg (1955?). The scores ended up being different... but they could have been the same. Moves were not played at the same time.
I agree with Kai. I think the scores should not be copyrighted, but for other reasons.
Some judges were never aware of Borges...
Miguel
Copyrighting games would really be the end of it. Chess has a big enough struggle penetrating as it is without trying to claim ownership of the moves played. I wont even get into the issue of reproducing the same moves of other games, but imagine books unable to be written because three dozen permissions and payment of royalties were required. Online news sites unable to share games, and let's not forget the popular press, where chess columns would be killed off quicker than you can blink since it is a hard enough sell to get them to support it without that insane hassle. The list goes on and on.
I don't think Danailov is genuinely interested in copyrighting games. I think he does this for the publicity. His choice to sue Chessbase is probably for their having denounced shady actions of his in the past. Other sites relayed moves and paid nothing despite demands, such as ICC, and others, but were not sued.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
Laskos wrote:Funny, every literary text is enumerable...
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Not that i think this argument has much import... but my hunch is the reason chess games *are* numerable, while prose is not, is that all chess games must end - because of repetition, or the 50 move rule. Texts (and mindless chess forums for that matter), can go on forever.
Human chess is not enumerable, to start with. The enforcement of those rules are not mandatory. Moreover, to be pedantic, you can even have illegal moves and if nobody claimed them as such, they stay in the board.
In addition, the time consumed for each move is an intrinsic part of the game. So, if they are relayed, it changes the meaning of the score (was this in time trouble or not?).
Moreover, even if two scores are identical, the two players could be different changing completely the meaning. Look at the famous games between Soviets and Argentinians in Goteborg (1955?). The scores ended up being different... but they could have been the same. Moves were not played at the same time.
I agree with Kai. I think the scores should not be copyrighted, but for other reasons.
Some judges were never aware of Borges...
Miguel
Copyrighting games would really be the end of it. Chess has a big enough struggle penetrating as it is without trying to claim ownership of the moves played. I wont even get into the issue of reproducing the same moves of other games, but imagine books unable to be written because three dozen permissions and payment of royalties were required. Online news sites unable to share games, and let's not forget the popular press, where chess columns would be killed off quicker than you can blink since it is a hard enough sell to get them to support it without that insane hassle. The list goes on and on.
I don't think Danailov is genuinely interested in copyrighting games. I think he does this for the publicity. His choice to sue Chessbase is probably for their having denounced shady actions of his in the past. Other sites relayed moves and paid nothing despite demands, such as ICC, and others, but were not sued.
I don't understand how it ever went to court.
I thought it was already decided that:
1. Game scores without annotation are not copyrighted
2. Game scores with annotation have copyright
3. Game collections can be copyrighted as a collection.
So, for instance:
1. e4 1-0
cannot be copyrighted.
and "My 60 Memorable Games" by Bobby Fischer can be a collection that has copyright.
Also, GM annotation of some particular game has copyright.
Otherwise, if someone resigns after the first move, they are guilty of copyright infringement. How stupid is that?
bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Albert Silver wrote:If game scores were ever genuinely copyrighted it would be the death of chess as we know it.
I think the stronger argument was the unfair competition one. If Chessbase had won on that the games still could not be copyrighted, but only not be relayed "live".
I guess I am missing something. IF Chessbase won on that?
Chessbase argued that the games were copyrightable, being inherently a database, and also that it was unfair competition. Of course, they lost both arguments.
bob wrote:There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
As you well know, that is optional. More to the point, there are a fairly small number of short games which get repeated from time to time. Where do you draw the line? If it hadn't already become a precedent I would be worried, though.
bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Funny again. Admitting that chess is enumerable, the only reason a literary text could not be enumerable is because it could be infinite? Does such text exist? Even this is irrelevant, as you seem to miss my main point. Both chess and MY utterance "I am" are innumerable.
