bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Funny again. Admitting that chess is enumerable, the only reason a literary text could not be enumerable is because it could be infinite? Does such text exist? Even this is irrelevant, as you seem to miss my main point. Both chess and MY utterance "I am" are innumerable.
Kai
I have no idea what you are talking about. "I am" can be enumerated easily. 4 loops, nested, each looping over all alpha characters and space, one loop for each of four positions. You get "I am" quickly. But for the general case, you have to have an infinite number of nested loops because there is no rule saying that "once you use N characters, you can't add another. In text, you can _always_ add another. Chess is finite. And I don't want to hear the silly "50 move is optional." Show me a game where 2 players decided to play on beyond 50 moves, _intentionally_.
It happens in blitz.
Miguel
I've played in a ton of tournaments over the years (as a human player and operating a chess program against humans) and I have _never_ seen it happen. Realistically, the game is finite as it is zero-sum.
Does an infinite-length exist? Funny. But for any length text you produce, I can produce one that is one word longer... And we _never_ reach a point where that is no longer true.
With chess, 3900 moves or so and the game is over.
Albert Silver wrote:
Sure it does. You wrote "I think the scores should not be copyrighted, but for other reasons.", and I agree, and those are a few of my reasons.
Ok, I get it now. I see scores as a description of what happen in one event. Like listing who scored what and when in a given sport game, etc. That data cannot be copyrighted.
Miguel
Funny you should mention that. When I first learned of the suit, I said exactly the same thing to CB, and quoted the infamous lawsuit whereby the American Baseball Association got it in its head that they could copyright baseball statistics. Not stats linked to specialized equipment such as average ball speeds or the like, but basic observable stats such as batting averages, and wanted to be able to charge royalties to any site or source that quoted a baseball stat. They took it to the highest courts and were thrown out of each and every one. It was kind of mindboggling to watch, and was yet another example of complete ineptitude on its part to alienate its fan base. And this after they were still recovering from the terrible after effects of the strike.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Funny again. Admitting that chess is enumerable, the only reason a literary text could not be enumerable is because it could be infinite? Does such text exist? Even this is irrelevant, as you seem to miss my main point. Both chess and MY utterance "I am" are innumerable.
Kai
I have no idea what you are talking about. "I am" can be enumerated easily. 4 loops, nested, each looping over all alpha characters and space, one loop for each of four positions. You get "I am" quickly. But for the general case, you have to have an infinite number of nested loops because there is no rule saying that "once you use N characters, you can't add another. In text, you can _always_ add another. Chess is finite. And I don't want to hear the silly "50 move is optional." Show me a game where 2 players decided to play on beyond 50 moves, _intentionally_. I've played in a ton of tournaments over the years (as a human player and operating a chess program against humans) and I have _never_ seen it happen. Realistically, the game is finite as it is zero-sum.
No, "realistically" (i.e. in practice) the game is infinite. "Theoretically" (i.e. pedantically) the game is finite. But, the argument is really naive even from that point of view, because if you want to be pedantic about the "limited number" of possible games, the optionality of the 50 move rule is a pedantic counter argument.
By the way, this is all silly, because the score could have identical moves, but one has been played by Karpov and Kasparov, and the other by me and a friend. Both games are not the same (the players differ), and the scores are not the same.
Miguel
Does an infinite-length exist? Funny. But for any length text you produce, I can produce one that is one word longer... And we _never_ reach a point where that is no longer true.
With chess, 3900 moves or so and the game is over.
I do not believe the original court decision was related to players, or locations, or time controls, or any of a dozen other variables, but to a sequence of moves.
As far as length goes, what is the longest game ever played? Did it even reach 500 moves? I've not seen one go beyond even 350. I think the "finiteness" of the game is pretty well a fact.
bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Funny again. Admitting that chess is enumerable, the only reason a literary text could not be enumerable is because it could be infinite? Does such text exist? Even this is irrelevant, as you seem to miss my main point. Both chess and MY utterance "I am" are innumerable.
Kai
I have no idea what you are talking about. "I am" can be enumerated easily. 4 loops, nested, each looping over all alpha characters and space, one loop for each of four positions. You get "I am" quickly. But for the general case, you have to have an infinite number of nested loops because there is no rule saying that "once you use N characters, you can't add another. In text, you can _always_ add another. Chess is finite. And I don't want to hear the silly "50 move is optional." Show me a game where 2 players decided to play on beyond 50 moves, _intentionally_.
It happens in blitz.
Miguel
Which is most definitely "finite" if you mean the traditional 5 minutes per side...
The 50 move rule is generally ignored there since there is no score sheet.
I've played in a ton of tournaments over the years (as a human player and operating a chess program against humans) and I have _never_ seen it happen. Realistically, the game is finite as it is zero-sum.
Does an infinite-length exist? Funny. But for any length text you produce, I can produce one that is one word longer... And we _never_ reach a point where that is no longer true.
With chess, 3900 moves or so and the game is over.
bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Funny again. Admitting that chess is enumerable, the only reason a literary text could not be enumerable is because it could be infinite? Does such text exist? Even this is irrelevant, as you seem to miss my main point. Both chess and MY utterance "I am" are innumerable.
Kai
I have no idea what you are talking about. "I am" can be enumerated easily. 4 loops, nested, each looping over all alpha characters and space, one loop for each of four positions. You get "I am" quickly. But for the general case, you have to have an infinite number of nested loops because there is no rule saying that "once you use N characters, you can't add another. In text, you can _always_ add another. Chess is finite. And I don't want to hear the silly "50 move is optional." Show me a game where 2 players decided to play on beyond 50 moves, _intentionally_. I've played in a ton of tournaments over the years (as a human player and operating a chess program against humans) and I have _never_ seen it happen. Realistically, the game is finite as it is zero-sum.
No, "realistically" (i.e. in practice) the game is infinite. "Theoretically" (i.e. pedantically) the game is finite. But, the argument is really naive even from that point of view, because if you want to be pedantic about the "limited number" of possible games, the optionality of the 50 move rule is a pedantic counter argument.
By the way, this is all silly, because the score could have identical moves, but one has been played by Karpov and Kasparov, and the other by me and a friend. Both games are not the same (the players differ), and the scores are not the same.
Miguel
Does an infinite-length exist? Funny. But for any length text you produce, I can produce one that is one word longer... And we _never_ reach a point where that is no longer true.
With chess, 3900 moves or so and the game is over.
I do not believe the original court decision was related to players, or locations, or time controls, or any of a dozen other variables, but to a sequence of moves.
Those should be taken into account if you want to copyright the score. The moves alone do not mean anything. That is why it is an absurd argument for the right decision.
As far as length goes, what is the longest game ever played? Did it even reach 500 moves? I've not seen one go beyond even 350. I think the "finiteness" of the game is pretty well a fact.
The same could be said about books. There is a practical limit, time for blitz, cellulose and ink for a book.
bob wrote: Many courts have already ruled that you can _not_ copyright a chess game, because chess games are "enumerable" and one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played.
Funny, every literary text is enumerable, hope the courts from now on will not allow them to fall under copyright protection, given the Chessbase precedent.
I just wrote such a program and it gave me
"one can write a program which, given enough time, can enumerate every possible game of chess that can be played" in 2 seconds.
Kai
This isn't true. There are an infinite number of possible "literary texts". You can insert words for as long as you want. Chess, however, is finite, because of the rules (most notably the 50 move rule).
Funny again. Admitting that chess is enumerable, the only reason a literary text could not be enumerable is because it could be infinite? Does such text exist? Even this is irrelevant, as you seem to miss my main point. Both chess and MY utterance "I am" are innumerable.
Kai
I have no idea what you are talking about. "I am" can be enumerated easily. 4 loops, nested, each looping over all alpha characters and space, one loop for each of four positions. You get "I am" quickly. But for the general case, you have to have an infinite number of nested loops because there is no rule saying that "once you use N characters, you can't add another. In text, you can _always_ add another. Chess is finite. And I don't want to hear the silly "50 move is optional." Show me a game where 2 players decided to play on beyond 50 moves, _intentionally_.
It happens in blitz.
Miguel
Which is most definitely "finite" if you mean the traditional 5 minutes per side...
The 50 move rule is generally ignored there since there is no score sheet.
But for important games, the people film it and you get a pgn about it later, where the 50 move rule may not have been respected.
Miguel
I've played in a ton of tournaments over the years (as a human player and operating a chess program against humans) and I have _never_ seen it happen. Realistically, the game is finite as it is zero-sum.
Does an infinite-length exist? Funny. But for any length text you produce, I can produce one that is one word longer... And we _never_ reach a point where that is no longer true.
With chess, 3900 moves or so and the game is over.
