Computer chess scene: a heap of ruins

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi there,

wow, what I read here give me a lot of power back. Very interesting discussion.

I have enough from group A (clone finders) and group B (critical engines which stands each time again and again in the middle of all these discussions).

So far I am not really sure what I should do now. Many people like my work and I have fun to do a bit and public my material.

My idea is:
To start a new rating list with two things I can make better as in the time before. My older paper basket SWCR had three problems:

1. Time control are not high enough
2. I used endgame databases. I think today that engines should play without endgame databases.
3. Engine I can't not longer support.

What I have in my brain:

To play tournaments in LIVE mode with a group of 30 engines. Each one vs. each one 4 games. And I will used actual engines, more amateurs. I believe the amateurs will have fun with this work. I will more look in the games, more game examples on my webpages as only results and news.

1. Without:
Houdini, Rybka

2. Without:
The engines by the open letters programmers

3. Without:
Older engines like Zappa, Loop, Thinker, Ktulu and so one. Newer developments are more important.

4. With basic engines like:
Stockfish, Critter, Spark, Hannibal, Naum, Umko, Protector, GullChess, Equinox, BugChess, Cyclone, Gaviota and and and ...

5. Different olders for a good mix:
AnMon, Francesca, Rebel for an example

6. And a lot of new engines.
Chiron for an example too ...

I don't have so far enough knowledge to engines I not used in the past. Glass or others for an example. I will try to contact Graham for more information and will look a bit in the results by others. I hope Graham can give me the tipps I need which of the amateurs I should add and which of the programmers from the amateurs can have be fun.

And I can hold my own motivation to 100%. Will do that with a lot of information to these engines, will write a new "News Page" and try all to make very interesting for my visitors.

No interest to be a longer time a part of these war with a rating list. Very interesting for myself is: All the amateurs which have interest on programming and more interest on his own work don't discuss often about topics like clones. This I have to support if I like my hobby.

Should the others create his own war.
I have enough from all this.

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Zach,

1+++++++
THANKS for this comment!
Let us hope that the situation will be better. All which have interest on it and can do a bit should help.

Let us hold the flag!

Best
Frank

[K I Hyams]

This whole depressing episode is the direct result of numerous people violating one or more of the seven deadly sins, chiefly greed, pride, wrath, envy and sloth.

No. This whole depressing episode is the direct result of one person violating one or more of the instructions in Leviticus 19:11.

“Ye shall not steal; neither shall ye deal falsely, nor lie one to another”.

I'm not up on this whole episode with Fruit and the Clones, but as I recall Fabien put out Fruit as open source, unlicensed, and without restrictions.

Fabien knew Fruit was strong, but at that time, decided to release the code, anyway. Nobody pressured him unduly to do this. It was his choice, and I'd describe it as his "with full knowledge" choice.

At that point, any chess author could have used Fruit code, and done so without crediting Fruit, in any way, and without making any payment to Fabien.

A copyright lawyer could fill in the details, here.

So some people did just that, being smart, and being human, and OF COURSE, some didn't mention (or denied), that they'd used code from Fruit. For a commercial program, that's probably a mandatory thing to do. There just isn't that much money in commercial chess programming, not to take advantage of that.

So, like all the rest of us, they lied, and it hurt no one, since everyone was free to do the same thing, if they wanted to.

So now, several years after the fact, there's a big hullabaloo because somebody told a lie?

<< Well I AM shocked! >> <<--satire on!

I thought every boss, co-worker, spouse, son, daughter, preacher, and politician, were pure as the driven snow, and NEVER told a lie.

I guess you don't need me to tell you you're acting like hypocrites, do you?

If you want some Bible reference, try:
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God", and "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Programmers are only people, and people are sinners, and why would you expect a standard of behavior that no one can live up to?

I'm only referring to the open source Fruit code, that Fabien released without restriction.

I'm not up on this whole episode with Fruit and the Clones, but as I recall Fabien put out Fruit as open source, unlicensed, and without restrictions.

If that is the case, why do you think that the FSF is supporting him? He released Fruit under a GPL licence.

Fabien knew Fruit was strong, but at that time, decided to release the code, anyway. Nobody pressured him unduly to do this. It was his choice, and I'd describe it as his "with full knowledge" choice.

Under GPL licence!!!!

At that point, any chess author could have used Fruit code, and done so without crediting Fruit, in any way, and without making any payment to Fabien.

Payment was not the issue. The infringement of the GPL licence was the issue

A copyright lawyer could fill in the details, here.

One may well do that, in the foreseeable future because the FSF appear to be pursuing the matter.

So some people did just that, being smart, and being human, and OF COURSE, some didn't mention (or denied), that they'd used code from Fruit.

The ramifications of that are extremely important in this case.

So, like all the rest of us, they lied, and it hurt no one, since everyone was free to do the same thing, if they wanted to.

No. This was not a victim-less crime, as you imply. As a consequence of Rajlich’s behaviour:
#. Rajlich released Rybka midway through the period in which Fruit was sold as a commercial product. As a consequence, income that should have gone to Fabien was diverted into Rajlich’s pocket.
#. Income that should have gone into the pockets of other commercial programmers went into Rajlich’s pocket.
#. Prizes that should have gone to other programmers went to Rajlich.
#. Prize money that should have gone to other programmers went to Rajlich.
#. Tournament organisers were misled and had their events compromised.
#. End-users were tricked into paying for a product that was not what it was claimed to be.
#. Testers were misled.

So now, several years after the fact, there's a big hullabaloo because somebody told a lie?

Common sense should have told you that was not going to be the reason for the fuss.

I thought every boss, co-worker, spouse, son, daughter, preacher, and politician, were pure as the driven snow, and NEVER told a lie.

I guess you don't need me to tell you you're acting like hypocrites, do you?

I don’t need anyone as ill-informed as you are to tell me anything.

If you want some Bible reference, try:
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God", and "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

My interest is not in throwing stones. My interest is due to the following issues:
1. I don’t like seeing the licences of other people abused, especially when those people have, at considerable potential cost to themselves, been kind enough to release the source of their programs for the benefit of the community.
2. I don’t like being tricked into paying for a product that is not what it claims to be.
3. I feel that the truth needs to come out for the benefit of those who lost income, prizes and prize money as a consequence of Rajlich’s behaviour.

Programmers are only people, and people are sinners, and why would you expect a standard of behavior that no one can live up to?

Rajlich’s standards may fall considerably short of those of many other people, programmers and non-programmers.

I'm only referring to the open source Fruit code, that Fabien released without restriction.

There isn’t any.

[Rebel]

Yes, Ed, I got that point: having signed a bit too fast the ICGA letter and then having second thoughts make you feel responsible for Vas.

Absolutely not my friend. I would do it for Bob in a similar situation.

Best to you,

Ed

Hmm from the SAME person that accused me of copying code from ippolit/robolito??? I didn't notice you defending me there. I noticed you making false statements and then being unable to back them up. I even gave you the diff output for the search code you said contained robo* code.

Why bring up this old cow when the above was obviously meant as reaching my hand out to you?

So, one more time,

I never accused you of copying code. It was about your refusal of the obvious that when reading and intensively discussing the Strelka sources (=Rybka) in fora the mind of a chess programmer would not remain unaffected by it.

What started as a humorous remark (with smiley!) to emphasize that point you took it the wrong way. It was explained to you numerous times the issue was not about COPYING CODE but ideas.

Hint, attack me elsewhere, CCC as I understand is pretty done with the Rybka issue.

[Dave Mitchell]

I have a copy of Fruit 2.1, which includes the GPL licensing statement. I thought there was an original Fruit that did not include any licensing statement, however. I don't even recall that it had a version number, but it was a long time ago, and I didn't d/l that version.

IIRC Fabien had written that he was not going to be working on Fruit any more, thus the no version number and no licensing. Correct me if I'm wrong here -- could easily be off the mark.

Do you have the very first version of Fruit that you can check this?

As far as human nature and lying goes, well. If you don't believe people lie quite frequently, then you're out of touch with those who have tested that, quality in us, (Psychologists, Sociologists, and Ethics/Religious, researchers) and I fear, reality.

Saying that people lie frequently, is not looking pessimistically at human nature. It is stating the obvious truth.

[Rebel]

No.

Miguel
PS: Started with the influence of VR on other current programmers, and Ed included Bob in the group. It was about ideas.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

--------------------------------

I guess what triggered Bob's anger was the realization his (clean!!!) Crafty possibly could have been affected by all the huge discussions of the Strelka sources (=Rybka) after all on an unconscious level. That thought was unbearable.

So far so good, fine with me if one feels that way.

It does not mean he had the right to loose his anger on me.

[Evert]

I have a copy of Fruit 2.1, which includes the GPL licensing statement. I thought there was an original Fruit that did not include any licensing statement, however. I don't even recall that it had a version number, but it was a long time ago, and I didn't d/l that version.

I don't have any prior versions of Fruit, someone else might.
If he released the code without any licence, then that's even more restrictive in a way because he retains the copyright, and without a licence no one else would be able to do anything with it.

IIRC Fabien had written that he was not going to be working on Fruit any more, thus the no version number and no licensing. Correct me if I'm wrong here -- could easily be off the mark.

I won't claim to know all the details, however announcing that he's not going to work on it any more is immaterial to any code already out there and doesn't affect the licence.

As far as human nature and lying goes, well. If you don't believe people lie quite frequently, then you're out of touch with those who have tested that, quality in us, (Psychologists, Sociologists, and Ethics/Religious, researchers) and I fear, reality.

Saying that people lie frequently, is not looking pessimistically at human nature. It is stating the obvious truth.

Of course people lie. All the time, and that is not a bad thing, because not every lie is a lie with the intention of being deceitful. People are not out to screw eachother over all the time by being dishonest, which is what I took to the gist of that quote.
Every one tells lies, but very few people are pathological liars.

[Nelson Hernandez]

I am glad my few words have helped you, and I would point out to others how powerful a few mild and conciliatory words can be. But I would add that sometimes we need to forgive as well as be forgiven. A lot of people have lost their heads, done and said things they should not, harmed the hobby in different ways. If we don't forgive them all then our only choices are to take sides in a bitter war that will lead us nowhere, or to depart from the hobby in sadness and disgust. After all is said and done, those are our three choices.

I'm not a saint in all this. I still have my public and private opinions. But I see no other way out the hobby's current dead end. One at a time we need to let all this strife go and move forward in our own constructive ways.

[Eelco de Groot]

I have a copy of Fruit 2.1, which includes the GPL licensing statement. I thought there was an original Fruit that did not include any licensing statement, however. I don't even recall that it had a version number, but it was a long time ago, and I didn't d/l that version.

I don't have any prior versions of Fruit, someone else might.
If he released the code without any licence, then that's even more restrictive in a way because he retains the copyright, and without a licence no one else would be able to do anything with it.

I do not recall Fabien quitting Fruit until much later after the commercial undertaking, but have to say that I wasn't following much of CCC or computerchess at the time. Fruit's timeline from Fabien himself that accompanies the Fruit versions, does not mention any of this, or Fruit not being GPL licensed in that timeframe, the timeframe before becoming commercial with a closed Fruit source.

Fabien would have still held the copyright in case of an open source program with no license, but the GPL restriction would not have been enforceable, the FSF would not have able to defend Fabien's rights etc.

Eelco

From the Fruit 1.0 README:

Legal details
-------------

Fruit 1.0 Copyright 2004 Fabien Letouzey.

This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at
your option) any later version.

This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307
USA

See the file "COPYING" for details.


General
-------

Today is 2004/03/17. This is Fruit 1.0 (Cherry).

Fruit is a UCI-only chess engine. This distribution comes up with a
Windows executable and platform-independent source code.

Sorry that "Fruit" looks like "Fritz" (it certainly sounds different
in English). This is certainly unintentional (or is it?)

http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/html/details1/Fruit.html

IIRC Fabien had written that he was not going to be working on Fruit any more, thus the no version number and no licensing. Correct me if I'm wrong here -- could easily be off the mark.

I won't claim to know all the details, however announcing that he's not going to work on it any more is immaterial to any code already out there and doesn't affect the licence.

As far as human nature and lying goes, well. If you don't believe people lie quite frequently, then you're out of touch with those who have tested that, quality in us, (Psychologists, Sociologists, and Ethics/Religious, researchers) and I fear, reality.

Saying that people lie frequently, is not looking pessimistically at human nature. It is stating the obvious truth.

Of course people lie. All the time, and that is not a bad thing, because not every lie is a lie with the intention of being deceitful. People are not out to screw eachother over all the time by being dishonest, which is what I took to the gist of that quote.
Every one tells lies, but very few people are pathological liars.

[JuLieN]

I am glad my few words have helped you, and I would point out to others how powerful a few mild and conciliatory words can be. But I would add that sometimes we need to forgive as well as be forgiven. A lot of people have lost their heads, done and said things they should not, harmed the hobby in different ways. If we don't forgive them all then our only choices are to take sides in a bitter war that will lead us nowhere, or to depart from the hobby in sadness and disgust. After all is said and done, those are our three choices.

I'm not a saint in all this. I still have my public and private opinions. But I see no other way out the hobby's current dead end. One at a time we need to let all this strife go and move forward in our own constructive ways.

All this is exactly my point of view. Thanks, Nelson!