WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

[kranium]

With all due respect Norman, I believe Robert Houdart himself chose to not enter into the competition. If he had chosen to enter any burden would have been on ICGA.

I say that with the full disclosure that Houdini has become my main engine for doing post mortem analysis on my OTB games.

yes agreed completely Tom...
but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

(this fact due to the unreasonable and hostile climate against Ippolit for the last years, unfairly and unscrupulously perpetrated by many here in this very forum)

[fern]

I do not care. Doped or not, I want to see them running. Don't you?

Fern

BTW, IF an engine go faster because it is doped as you call-it, then by definition is not anymore a clone, but something different. And if it is not so, then no doping advantage.

Fern

[bob]

No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern

+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available... this year = Houdini

That's a pure crock. What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito...

Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

[bob]

With all due respect Norman, I believe Robert Houdart himself chose to not enter into the competition. If he had chosen to enter any burden would have been on ICGA.

I say that with the full disclosure that Houdini has become my main engine for doing post mortem analysis on my OTB games.

yes agreed completely Tom...
but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

(this fact due to the unreasonable and hostile climate against Ippolit for the last years, unfairly and unscrupulously perpetrated by many here in this very forum)

Ippolit has been treated quite fairly, IMHO. It is all the ippo* derivatives that receive the scorn they richly deserve...

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Norman,

often we, better I wrote the TalkChess members, wrote about the negative consequences around the Igorit history. You are a part from this history with source cleaning and your own development of the most important successors today are available.

I think the complete history of Igorit have positive marks too. Sune Fischer wrote yesterday an interesting message about the his own opinion.

Motivation is my topic, again and again. Many of the older programmers got new motivations with the topic Igorit. Unfortunately, much others lost motivation.

Have a look in the long years developements of Hiarcs and Junior for an example. Great is, that both programs don't lost his own face. The playing style and the way the programmers goes since years is the same. From this point of view I can understand the open letters but to many others points fall into oblivion.

It should be clear, that each one is proud of his own work. A programmer of an engine, Frank Quisinsky and his work on SWCR , Norman with the fantastic work in code cleaning, find interesting UCI options and fix so many problems and so on, Sedat with his great books, tourneys and so on.

And the Houdini programmer find out a bit and added it in good known sources. Yes, the modern way in times today to create a development of a sofware application.

But all in all ...
Honesty is important but ...

Important too is ...
Understandings for others in combination what they do. Often I have problems in that and have a big mouth.

Computer chess people are individualist. Most thinking on the own advantage only, that make the situation very complicated to topics like Igorit, Houdini, Frank Quisinsky or Norman Schmidt.

Let us admit that things have come to this. Now we must live with the situation we have

Fact is:
Junior is World Champion!
Thinking on Amir's first World Championchip. Before the tournament started he told all others ... "My program will win and will be World Champion"

Seems that Amir isn't easy
I don't know but Amir is great programmer and I think it's good that Junior won. This is the reward of a good work in the latest two years around Junior.

Best
Frank

[bob]

I do not care. Doped or not, I want to see them running. Don't you?

Fern

BTW, IF an engine go faster because it is doped as you call-it, then by definition is not anymore a clone, but something different. And if it is not so, then no doping advantage.

Fern

So a runner that takes HGH to build muscle mass is not the original runner, who has cheated. He is a "new entity"?

I think he is still nothing more than a cheater...

And NO, I don't want to see him run... I want to watch a race, not a freak show.

[kranium]

With all due respect Norman, I believe Robert Houdart himself chose to not enter into the competition. If he had chosen to enter any burden would have been on ICGA.

I say that with the full disclosure that Houdini has become my main engine for doing post mortem analysis on my OTB games.

yes agreed completely Tom...
but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

(this fact due to the unreasonable and hostile climate against Ippolit for the last years, unfairly and unscrupulously perpetrated by many here in this very forum)

Ippolit has been treated quite fairly, IMHO. It is all the ippo* derivatives that receive the scorn they richly deserve...

Bob-

Ippolit is proving to be clean...
why is it then, that it is banned from tournaments and major rating lists?

[Peter Skinner]

+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.

In this thread: http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 67&t=41172

You give links providing evidence that Houdini is a clone, then you come in this thread and admonish the CCC establishment for _not_ allowing it to play?

Are you actually arguing both sides purely to troll?

Peter

[hgm]

but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

Interesting that you assume here that the ultimate outcome could only be he would be found out to be a derivative... If Houdini had no Ippo or Fruit code whatsoever, the 'ultimate outcome' would of course be that he would be welcomed to the tournament.

Apparently you are 100% convinced that Houdini is a derivative.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

With all due respect Norman, I believe Robert Houdart himself chose to not enter into the competition. If he had chosen to enter any burden would have been on ICGA.

I say that with the full disclosure that Houdini has become my main engine for doing post mortem analysis on my OTB games.

yes agreed completely Tom...
but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

(this fact due to the unreasonable and hostile climate against Ippolit for the last years, unfairly and unscrupulously perpetrated by many here in this very forum)

He wasn't quite honest about his work with Houdini and it's original roots hence the negative reactions that rised aginst him....

You were and still honest about your work with FireBird and I deeply respect you for that....

BTW,I still do believe that FireBird 1.1,at least a personality of it ,and Firebird 1.2 are the strongest versions according to my ongoing testing....
Cheers,
Dr.D