WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

[kranium]

+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.

In this thread: http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 67&t=41172

You give links providing evidence that Houdini is a clone, then you come in this thread and admonish the CCC establishment for _not_ allowing it to play?

Are you actually arguing both sides purely to troll?

Peter

my links provide evidence that Houdini started as Robbolito 0.09...
i say nothing about 'clone'...those are you words, your value judgement, your perception.

i prefer the term 'derivative' ....as i've stated many times.

but, even if Houdini is a dirty 'clone' as you may characterize it...

this fact hasn't prevented the major testing groups from testing it?
this fact hasn't prevented it from being sold, or from being embraced by corporate concerns like ChessOk, etc...

Ippolit is clean, and Houdini is the strongest program on the planet...
yes, he has been completely disingenuous concerning it's origins, and has violated the GPL.

but, just how does the CC community plan to deal with it?
by banning him from the WCCC?

[kranium]

but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

Interesting that you assume here that the ultimate outcome could only be he would be found out to be a derivative... If Houdini had no Ippo or Fruit code whatsoever, the 'ultimate outcome' would of course be that he would be welcomed to the tournament.

Apparently you are 100% convinced that Houdini is a derivative.

yes absolutely....
please see this thread for a mass of evidence, some of which i provided

http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1647

[Dayffd]

Hiarcs and Shredder needed to win their final games to overtake Junior to become the WCCC 2011 Champion, but both only managed to secure a half point.

Junior faced Hiarcs in the final round and Shredder's final dance partner was Jonny. Both games ended in the same fashion, a draw.

Therefore, Amir Ban and Shay Bushinsky are the 2011 World Computer Chess Champions.

Congratulations to the Junior team on a very well played event and I look forward to the upcoming versions to be released before Christmas.

Peter

After a quick and fruitless search, is there a site url where the games may be available for download?

[Peter Skinner]

After a quick and fruitless search, is there a site url where the games may be available for download?

http://www.digitalgametechnology.com/Ch ... 11/tfd.htm

Or

http://www.digitalgametechnology.com/Ch ... rounds.zip

[kranium]

'snipped'

What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that?
Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Bob-
i don't want a tournament of clones...
and i'm confident that simple 100% copies, name hex-edited clones, etc. would be quickly found out and eliminated...

but, as you know Houdini is anything but that...
he has cheated, and lied, and violated the GPL...yes.

but has also managed to provide a real improvement, (some delicious ELO)...apparently exactly what many people want.

i don't like it, you don't like it, many don't like it...
but how exactly are you, we, the CC community, the CCC, etc, going to deal with it?

i don't recommend hiding heads in the sand for 5 years as per Vas. R and Rybka,
(i know you didn't do this, but many here did)
followed by a slap on the wrist (i.e. a WCCC ban 5 years too late),
while the author continues to develop an sell unabated

i certainly prefer Ed's interesting solution to this pitiful outcome

i say, open it up...encourage development and creativity, look for improvements
i f someone cheats, it will be found out and they will be exposed.

Norm

[Robert Flesher]

No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern

+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available... this year = Houdini

That's a pure crock. What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito...

Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Heya Bob, although I agree with you in principle 100%, in another way I must disagree. Please let me explain. One problem that does occur with the excluding of Rybka and it's children is the relative quality of the "CHESS" being played. OF course all the engines that did play are amazingly strong and played great chess, but I did say that the quality is relative. Most would agree that had Rybka or Houdini played the outcome would have been different, but more interesting to chess would the method in which those engines would have won. It is that ability to climb to the next level of chess that interests some of us.

One can observe that 2800 elo play looks good until a 2900 player comes along. It seems to me some people on this forum have become so caught up on the "who cloned who?" bullshit they have forgotten the "CHESS" aspect. There are still some people who enjoy these tournaments for the actual chess being played. Yes, cloning is wrong! and unacceptable, but why does Rybka and it's ever evolving family have to be so much stronger than the rest, it begs the question. I think everyone know what that is.

[kranium]

Hi Norman,

often we, better I wrote the TalkChess members, wrote about the negative consequences around the Igorit history. You are a part from this history with source cleaning and your own development of the most important successors today are available.

I think the complete history of Igorit have positive marks too. Sune Fischer wrote yesterday an interesting message about the his own opinion.

Motivation is my topic, again and again. Many of the older programmers got new motivations with the topic Igorit. Unfortunately, much others lost motivation.

Have a look in the long years developements of Hiarcs and Junior for an example. Great is, that both programs don't lost his own face. The playing style and the way the programmers goes since years is the same. From this point of view I can understand the open letters but to many others points fall into oblivion.

It should be clear, that each one is proud of his own work. A programmer of an engine, Frank Quisinsky and his work on SWCR , Norman with the fantastic work in code cleaning, find interesting UCI options and fix so many problems and so on, Sedat with his great books, tourneys and so on.

And the Houdini programmer find out a bit and added it in good known sources. Yes, the modern way in times today to create a development of a sofware application.

But all in all ...
Honesty is important but ...

Important too is ...
Understandings for others in combination what they do. Often I have problems in that and have a big mouth.

Computer chess people are individualist. Most thinking on the own advantage only, that make the situation very complicated to topics like Igorit, Houdini, Frank Quisinsky or Norman Schmidt.

Let us admit that things have come to this. Now we must live with the situation we have

Fact is:
Junior is World Champion!
Thinking on Amir's first World Championchip. Before the tournament started he told all others ... "My program will win and will be World Champion"

Seems that Amir isn't easy
I don't know but Amir is great programmer and I think it's good that Junior won. This is the reward of a good work in the latest two years around Junior.

Best
Frank

+1
well said Frank

Junior is a very interesting engine in many ways..
my congrats to the team.

[Houdini]

The bullshit meter is running high in this thread, let me answer some of the more incorrect stuff (without being exhaustive...).

1) "the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty"
Houdini was not excluded, Houdini did simply not participate. I consider what is called the "World Championship" in its current format an obsolete event, and the 2011 tournament is a clear demonstration of this.

2) "What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito... "
No, Houdini is not a "hex-edited Robbolito".
Houdini is about 100 Elo stronger than Robbolito, besides SMP support, table base support, and many other features.

3) "and has violated the GPL. "
No, Houdini does not violate any software license, and does not contain any GPL-licensed code. The only third-party code included in Houdini is the Gaviota and Nalimova EGTB code.

It's funny that those nonsensical claims results from two opposite visions of Houdini. Bob is very eager to deny the reality of Houdini's success story (denigrating it at every occasion), Norman is very eager to be part of Houdini's success story (claiming it to be partially his at every occasion).

By the way, congrats to Junior!

Robert

[bob]

With all due respect Norman, I believe Robert Houdart himself chose to not enter into the competition. If he had chosen to enter any burden would have been on ICGA.

I say that with the full disclosure that Houdini has become my main engine for doing post mortem analysis on my OTB games.

yes agreed completely Tom...
but i'm quite sure he made no attempt to enter, knowing all to well the inevitable reaction, and ultimate outcome...

(this fact due to the unreasonable and hostile climate against Ippolit for the last years, unfairly and unscrupulously perpetrated by many here in this very forum)

Ippolit has been treated quite fairly, IMHO. It is all the ippo* derivatives that receive the scorn they richly deserve...

Bob-

Ippolit is proving to be clean...
why is it then, that it is banned from tournaments and major rating lists?

For a tournament, an AUTHOR has to enter it. Can't speak for the rating list folks...

[kranium]

The bullshit meter is running high in this thread, let me answer some of the more incorrect stuff (without being exhaustive...).

1) "the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty"
Houdini was not excluded, Houdini did simply not participate. I consider what is called the "World Championship" in its current format an obsolete event, and the 2011 tournament is a clear demonstration of this.

2) "What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito... "
No, Houdini is not a "hex-edited Robbolito".
Houdini is about 100 Elo stronger than Robbolito, besides SMP support, table base support, and many other features.

3) "and has violated the GPL. "
No, Houdini does not violate any software license, and does not contain any GPL-licensed code. The only third-party code included in Houdini is the Gaviota and Nalimova EGTB code.

It's funny that those nonsensical claims results from two opposite visions of Houdini. Bob is very eager to deny the reality of Houdini's success story (denigrating it at every occasion), Norman is very eager to be part of Houdini's success story (claiming it to be partially his at every occasion).

By the way, congrats to Junior!

Robert

Robert-
you've been asked these questions on several occasions now...but you seem reluctant or unwilling to answer,
for purposes of public record, perhaps you will reconsider...

how do you explain the fact that Houdini provides identical output as Robbolito in all these positions:
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... =&start=40

how do you explain Jury Osipovs findings posted here:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 87157f81e5

how do you explain the presence of winmm.lib in Houdinin 1.0, used in the exact same manner as Robbolito 0.09 and in the exact same places?
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php ... 915#p14915

can you please answer my question here concerning 64 bit integer type defs:
http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... =&start=70

how do you explain the ELO similarity (exactness) between Houdini 1.0 and Robbolito 0.09?
http://s010.radikal.ru/i313/1110/bd/747b4a73e617.png

and most importantly, both Robbolito and Houdini have now been almost completely decompiled and compared, and a near 1:1 code correspondence has been found
(by someone not interested in 'gleaning' your success, BTW)
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1647
can you explain the findings?

FYI - i couldn't care less to be part of your Houdini 'success story'...i simply desire to see the truth revealed.