WCCC 2011 - Junior is the 2011 World Champion

[fern]

The case of the runner has sense, but this is not a case of runners because in this example you use, it is implicit from the beginning that the two entities are human beings, so, just the same entity.
The all point has been always here to discuss if that identity apply in this, engines, case. I think it is a matter of degree. IF one engine made on the ground of other has lot of extra code and get lot a extra elo points, I thinks it is not anymore the same entity. If one engine change just some banal things and is more or less same player, then you are right, we have just a clone.
It is a casuistic affair, i think, not a principled one.

My best
Fern

[Dayffd]

After a quick and fruitless search, is there a site url where the games may be available for download?

http://www.digitalgametechnology.com/Ch ... 11/tfd.htm

Or

http://www.digitalgametechnology.com/Ch ... rounds.zip

Thank you.

[bob]

The bullshit meter is running high in this thread, let me answer some of the more incorrect stuff (without being exhaustive...).

1) "the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty"
Houdini was not excluded, Houdini did simply not participate. I consider what is called the "World Championship" in its current format an obsolete event, and the 2011 tournament is a clear demonstration of this.

2) "What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito... "
No, Houdini is not a "hex-edited Robbolito".
Houdini is about 100 Elo stronger than Robbolito, besides SMP support, table base support, and many other features.

3) "and has violated the GPL. "
No, Houdini does not violate any software license, and does not contain any GPL-licensed code. The only third-party code included in Houdini is the Gaviota and Nalimova EGTB code.

It's funny that those nonsensical claims results from two opposite visions of Houdini. Bob is very eager to deny the reality of Houdini's success story (denigrating it at every occasion), Norman is very eager to be part of Houdini's success story (claiming it to be partially his at every occasion).

By the way, congrats to Junior!

Robert

Sorry, but I am not "denigrating it at every occasion." I simply call it what it is, a derivative of Robolito. Doesn't matter what you have added, derivative is derivative... Vas improved on what he copied from Fruit. His program was STILL a derivative...

[bob]

'snipped'

What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that?
Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Bob-
i don't want a tournament of clones...
and i'm confident that simple 100% copies, name hex-edited clones, etc. would be quickly found out and eliminated...

but, as you know Houdini is anything but that...
he has cheated, and lied, and violated the GPL...yes.

but has also managed to provide a real improvement, (some delicious ELO)...apparently exactly what many people want.

i don't like it, you don't like it, many don't like it...
but how exactly are you, we, the CC community, the CCC, etc, going to deal with it?

i don't recommend hiding heads in the sand for 5 years as per Vas. R and Rybka,
(i know you didn't do this, but many here did)
followed by a slap on the wrist (i.e. a WCCC ban 5 years too late),
while the author continues to develop an sell unabated

i certainly prefer Ed's interesting solution to this pitiful outcome

i say, open it up...encourage development and creativity, look for improvements
i f someone cheats, it will be found out and they will be exposed.

Norm

If we follow Ed's suggestion, we end up with nothing but modified robos. The "minimum Elo gain" is impossible to measure. ICC ratings? Give me a break, as they are easy to manipulate by playing selectively, or by having high-rated associates play and intentionally lose. Anything other than online and it will be too expensive for most to do. So the "must show an improvement" is not going to work. The very idea is flawed badly.

If this is what the majority want, that's fine by me. It is not for me, however...

[bob]

No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern

+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available... this year = Houdini

That's a pure crock. What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito...

Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Heya Bob, although I agree with you in principle 100%, in another way I must disagree. Please let me explain. One problem that does occur with the excluding of Rybka and it's children is the relative quality of the "CHESS" being played. OF course all the engines that did play are amazingly strong and played great chess, but I did say that the quality is relative. Most would agree that had Rybka or Houdini played the outcome would have been different, but more interesting to chess would the method in which those engines would have won. It is that ability to climb to the next level of chess that interests some of us.

One can observe that 2800 elo play looks good until a 2900 player comes along. It seems to me some people on this forum have become so caught up on the "who cloned who?" bullshit they have forgotten the "CHESS" aspect. There are still some people who enjoy these tournaments for the actual chess being played. Yes, cloning is wrong! and unacceptable, but why does Rybka and it's ever evolving family have to be so much stronger than the rest, it begs the question. I think everyone know what that is.

When you play someone in a tennis match, do you care about the quality of the game, or do you want to win using your skills and nothing else? For me, this has always been about the "competition". Me competing with others that have come up through the chess development process just as I did. Competing against copies of copies is not very attractive to me as a programmer. Might be what you as a spectator wants, of course, but spectating is a different activity than competing...

[Peter Berger]

It is no secret that I have always liked the Junior chessprogram very much, since about version 8 - and thought that it is special.

As evidence I can give the Junior-Crafty match I did with a 10:1 hardware advantage for Crafty at a time where this match was likely to be of interest, and posted it here- dunno if this was with the current host or on the past forum. Junior won.

But Junior can't be considered the world champion IMHO - it just won the current ICGA tournament. I hope everyone attending had a nice time in the Netherlands - maybe they will even be able to set up another tournament next year - but world champion? Come on.

[Houdini]

Sorry, but I am not "denigrating it at every occasion." I simply call it what it is, a derivative of Robolito. Doesn't matter what you have added, derivative is derivative... Vas improved on what he copied from Fruit. His program was STILL a derivative...

The truth is that you ARE denigrating Houdini at every occasion, isn't it my my dear "Puke" Bob?
Contrary to what you were saying in your post, Houdini is NOT a "hex-edited" whatever. Even you should know that by now, so why write it?

Robert

[Robert Flesher]

No doubt Junior is a great engine, I bought the last one time ago and I happy with it, but surely I would like it in a tourn against the engines that all know are the strongest, cloned or not.
I have not organized a tourn, but maybe someone did...or will. I would like to know about THOSE results.

Fern

+1
Agreed..

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available...
this year = Houdini

and towards that goal, the tournament should be 'open' format, not a hand-picked selection of 'approved' programs...
apparently the organizers can 'divine' which programs are 'clean' and which are not?

(like they knew the last 5 years w/ Rybka?)

the fact that Houdini is excluded is a travesty...
all due to the CCC establishment erroneously, unfairly, and without any evidence, labeling and blacklisting Ippolit engines as 'the clones'...

what a farce this has become.

referring to what M. Hull posted:
the ippolit source code is now known 'clean', thus competing against it is not akin to competing against a 'doped' athlete...they analogy is ridiculous.

The World Champion should normally be the strongest program available... this year = Houdini

That's a pure crock. What if someone just takes commercial rybka, hex-edits the name, and enters that? That's basically Houdart's modus operandi with Houdini, just replace Rybka 4.1 with Robolito...

Sounds like a wonderful tournament you would want... Nothing but clones.

Heya Bob, although I agree with you in principle 100%, in another way I must disagree. Please let me explain. One problem that does occur with the excluding of Rybka and it's children is the relative quality of the "CHESS" being played. OF course all the engines that did play are amazingly strong and played great chess, but I did say that the quality is relative. Most would agree that had Rybka or Houdini played the outcome would have been different, but more interesting to chess would the method in which those engines would have won. It is that ability to climb to the next level of chess that interests some of us.

One can observe that 2800 elo play looks good until a 2900 player comes along. It seems to me some people on this forum have become so caught up on the "who cloned who?" bullshit they have forgotten the "CHESS" aspect. There are still some people who enjoy these tournaments for the actual chess being played. Yes, cloning is wrong! and unacceptable, but why does Rybka and it's ever evolving family have to be so much stronger than the rest, it begs the question. I think everyone know what that is.

When you play someone in a tennis match, do you care about the quality of the game, or do you want to win using your skills and nothing else? For me, this has always been about the "competition". Me competing with others that have come up through the chess development process just as I did. Competing against copies of copies is not very attractive to me as a programmer. Might be what you as a spectator wants, of course, but spectating is a different activity than competing...

I think you may have missed my point. I am looking at this from a chess player's point of view. Good chess is about quality, and the fact remains regardless of origins, Rybka and it's offspring still walk all over any that played in the recent tournament. Likewise, I am sure when Kasparov retired, there was a huge sigh of relief from the other top players, however, chess tournaments just don't seem the same with him at the top. Sure there are other amazingly talented players, but the chess that Kasparov played in his prime was on another level. This was my point! Regarding clones, derivatives, etc, etc, I can only agree with your point of view. Capiche?

[Terry McCracken]

Sorry, but I am not "denigrating it at every occasion." I simply call it what it is, a derivative of Robolito. Doesn't matter what you have added, derivative is derivative... Vas improved on what he copied from Fruit. His program was STILL a derivative...

The truth is that you ARE denigrating Houdini at every occasion, isn't it my my dear "Puke" Bob?
Contrary to what you were saying in your post, Houdini is NOT a "hex-edited" whatever. Even you should know that by now, so why write it?

Robert

Do you think you've made a point? I think you just inadvertently made Bob's point.

[bob]

Sorry, but I am not "denigrating it at every occasion." I simply call it what it is, a derivative of Robolito. Doesn't matter what you have added, derivative is derivative... Vas improved on what he copied from Fruit. His program was STILL a derivative...

The truth is that you ARE denigrating Houdini at every occasion, isn't it my my dear "Puke" Bob?
Contrary to what you were saying in your post, Houdini is NOT a "hex-edited" whatever. Even you should know that by now, so why write it?

Robert

Again, it is a derivative. From someone that has made more false statements than Bill Clinton. Program is very strong, however. But your character could stand some work...

I didn't say Houdini was a "hex edited clone." I asked where we would draw the line if the "family" is admitted to an event (ippolit/robolito/ivanhoe/firebird/houdini/who-knows-what-else/etc). We've actually HAD "hex edited" programs in past ICGA events. Been quite a while however...