hgm wrote:You don't seem to get it. Of course it is a World Championship, just not the World Championship you imagine it is. It is the World Championship for computer-chess programmers. And Amir is the new World Champion. No need to change the name or anything.
That there remain stupid / pigheaded people that think Junior is the World Champion, and that this shouldimply stronger programs don't exist, is their problem. Remarks of such people are certainly not 'justified', but just show their ignorance.
BS
Junior is a World Champion in the same way NBA champion is the World Champion. Pompous and fake title that only glorifies the ego of participant and builds the national pride (so common with Americans).
World Champion is the title (that by all common sense ppl) implies being the best in the world in the given discipline and certainly not the best of the small group of participants (willing to pay the fee and hotel expenses at that particular moment) currently participating under some very specific and discriminatory set of rules. So marketing a product as a world champion is nothing but cheating of customers and ICGA giving credibility to that makes the organization a joke.
The thing is, computer chess is such a rudimentary and small filed that it practically would not exist without fans.
So equating being best of 10 authors to being best in the world is nothing but the ego trip of ppl with complex.
And using this to boost sales is nothing but customer cheating and there the consumer protection agency could consider investigation.
However, since the market size is so small nobody actually cares.
hgm wrote:You don't seem to get it. Of course it is a World Championship, just not the World Championship you imagine it is. It is the World Championship for computer-chess programmers. And Amir is the new World Champion. No need to change the name or anything.
That there remain stupid / pigheaded people that think Junior is the World Champion, and that this shouldimply stronger programs don't exist, is their problem. Remarks of such people are certainly not 'justified', but just show their ignorance.
BS
Junior is a World Champion in the same way NBA champion is the World Champion. Pompous and fake title that only glorifies the ego of participant and builds the national pride (so common with Americans).
World Champion is the title (that by all common sense ppl) implies being the best in the world in the given discipline and certainly not the best of the small group of participants (willing to pay the fee and hotel expenses at that particular moment) currently participating under some very specific and discriminatory set of rules. So marketing a product as a world champion is nothing but cheating of customers and ICGA giving credibility to that makes the organization a joke.
The thing is, computer chess is such a rudimentary and small filed that it practically would not exist without fans.
So equating being best of 10 authors to being best in the world is nothing but the ego trip of ppl with complex.
And using this to boost sales is nothing but customer cheating and there the consumer protection agency could consider investigation.
However, since the market size is so small nobody actually cares.
Start your own competing organization then. No one's stopping you.
All this whining from the clone-lovers is extraordinarily tiresome. Use whatever excuses you want to try and justify it, but in the end you're all just selfish people who think that the ends (having stronger programs) justify the means (allowing and accepting clones and illegal derivatives on the computer chess scene, even in the most prestigious tournaments). Its like saying "I want better medicines for myself (I mean, for the good of humanity!) so we should allow them to be tested on human slaves so that we can develop them more easily." Difference in degree maybe, but not in kind.
You guys keep advancing every argument you can think of for why we should allow cloners to steal the hard work of honest programmers, then you turn around and complain when those honest programmers object to this, and you try to paint THEM (the victims) as the bad guys. It makes me sick.
Lion wrote:Houdini is not just a simple copy of Rybka 4.1 since it is over 50 ELO stronger !
Wow..he modified it.
Try to gain 50 ELO out of Rybka 4.1 and then we discuss.
What does it matter? That legitimises a derivative?? If I modified it..tuned it for 50 or 100 elo it makes it right?? Is that your point?
You miss the original statement !
By doing copy/past/release, do dont get over 50 ELO improvement
I didn't miss it at all. Since I.Q./s have dropped ~20% in the last decade with computer chessnuts it's quite impossible for you to comprehend the duplicity in your statement.
Vas copied and pasted and tuned the engine several hundred elo. You wouldn't know and you would be first in line to purchase it.
wgarvin wrote:Start your own competing organization then. No one's stopping you.
No I won't. Financial interest in the field is pathetic and I don't have an ego trip like most of "poor honest programmers". However, that won't stop me from criticizing a hypocritical competition with the completely fake title.
All this whining from the clone-lovers is extraordinarily tiresome. Use whatever excuses you want to try and justify it, but in the end you're all just selfish people who think that the ends (having stronger programs) justify the means (allowing and accepting clones and illegal derivatives on the computer chess scene, even in the most prestigious tournaments). Its like saying "I want better medicines for myself (I mean, for the good of humanity!) so we should allow them to be tested on human slaves so that we can develop them more easily." Difference in degree maybe, but not in kind.
You guys keep advancing every argument you can think of for why we should allow cloners to steal the hard work of honest programmers, then you turn around and complain when those honest programmers object to this, and you try to paint THEM (the victims) as the bad guys. It makes me sick.
You are the one who is whining, however you didn't present any counterargument which speaks volumes about the position you are "defending"...
Milos wrote:BS
Junior is a World Champion in the same way NBA champion is the World Champion. Pompous and fake title that only glorifies the ego of participant and builds the national pride (so common with Americans).
World Champion is the title (that by all common sense ppl) implies being the best in the world in the given discipline and certainly not the best of the small group of participants (willing to pay the fee and hotel expenses at that particular moment) currently participating under some very specific and discriminatory set of rules. So marketing a product as a world champion is nothing but cheating of customers and ICGA giving credibility to that makes the organization a joke.
The thing is, computer chess is such a rudimentary and small filed that it practically would not exist without fans.
So equating being best of 10 authors to being best in the world is nothing but the ego trip of ppl with complex.
And using this to boost sales is nothing but customer cheating and there the consumer protection agency could consider investigation.
However, since the market size is so small nobody actually cares.
Well,at least you know now in which category people with such opinions fall.
The only joke here is that we could not do computer chess without fans. Fact is I am doing fine. And I surely hope that when you are referring to fans, you don't mean people like yourself. Because in that case, a more accurate statement would be: computer chess can hardly be expected to survive when they attract 'fans'...
wgarvin wrote:Start your own competing organization then. No one's stopping you.
No I won't. Financial interest in the field is pathetic and I don't have an ego trip like most of "poor honest programmers". However, that won't stop me from criticizing a hypocritical competition with the completely fake title.
All this whining from the clone-lovers is extraordinarily tiresome. Use whatever excuses you want to try and justify it, but in the end you're all just selfish people who think that the ends (having stronger programs) justify the means (allowing and accepting clones and illegal derivatives on the computer chess scene, even in the most prestigious tournaments). Its like saying "I want better medicines for myself (I mean, for the good of humanity!) so we should allow them to be tested on human slaves so that we can develop them more easily." Difference in degree maybe, but not in kind.
You guys keep advancing every argument you can think of for why we should allow cloners to steal the hard work of honest programmers, then you turn around and complain when those honest programmers object to this, and you try to paint THEM (the victims) as the bad guys. It makes me sick.
You are the one who is whining, however you didn't present any counterargument which speaks volumes about the position you are "defending"...
Whaa! Children should be seen and not heard. No supper for you. Go to bed hungry.
hgm wrote:The only joke here is that we could not do computer chess without fans. Fact is I am doing fine. And I surely hope that when you are referring to fans, you don't mean people like yourself. Because in that case, a more accurate statement would be: computer chess can hardly be expected to survive when they attract 'fans'...
Lol, says a guy whose only way to get his engine used by anyone is to pack it with the GUI he's maintaining. Hilarious.
You must be then maintaining the GUI just for chess programmers right?
hgm wrote:The only joke here is that we could not do computer chess without fans. Fact is I am doing fine. And I surely hope that when you are referring to fans, you don't mean people like yourself. Because in that case, a more accurate statement would be: computer chess can hardly be expected to survive when they attract 'fans'...
Lol, says a guy whose only way to get his engine used by anyone is to pack it with the GUI he's maintaining. Hilarious.
You must be then maintaining the GUI just for chess programmers right?
Terry McCracken wrote:Better than you could do, honestly.
There are other ways to get respected in life beside making the "original" chess program. I know this is unimaginable for some "programmers" on this forum, but I can't help them with that .
I don't follow your logic. I develop (which, as you might not know, is a bit different from 'maintain') WinBoard to satisfy my GUI needs, mainly research on evaluation of Chess pieces. Why do you think Chess programmers would be interested in 'my engine'?
Which GUI packs your engine, btw? Hilarious indeed...
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Hilarious indeed...