ChessUSA.com TalkChess.com
Hosted by Your Move Chess & Games
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Houdini 3
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics Flat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Thorsten Czub



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 10160
Location: germany
PostPost subject: Re: Houdini 3    Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:30 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Eelco de Groot wrote:
mclane wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Basically I would like to know if Komodo (and Stockfish) are weak at bullet chess because we are doing something wrong, or whether we are stronger at slower chess because Ippo/Ivanhoe is doing something wrong (or both). Comments anyone?


komodo and stockfish are intelligent evaluation programs.
ippo/ivanhoe or rybka etc. are stupid search programs.

the intelligent programs are weak at bullet, and better at slow chess.


Maybe so, but I would not count Rybka 4.1 or even Rybka 3 as just more Fritz 5.32 clones on anabolic bitboard steroids. Larry put a lot of knowledge into Rybka 3. More than they actually needed which Vas and Larry both admitted, in the hope it would pay off at very long range. The reasoning is simple, the longer the time control the less you can afford positional mistakes. Tactical mistakes are still important as well but search is a bit better at correcting those.

It may be just a question at what timecontrol/hardware which set of evaluation features you need. Clearly older HIARCS had too much evaluation features for todays processors, and had to scale back. Fruit was very good at all ranges but still had some limitations in that the eval did cover only the most important things. All the improvements in Toga for Fruit however were in the search, I don't remember anything really good as an improvement in the evaluation. So the evaluation was Fruit's greatest strength and that was what scaled best. All that also ended up in Rybka but some of Larry's stuff was thrown out the Ippolit clones. It made for very good blitzers and I presume some of that we still see in Houdini today. Richard maybe disagrees?

But Tord Romstad I think was much more to the point here than my own explanation:

Quote:
> If you are correct then Hiarcs at infinite time ought to beat Rybka at infinite time - and quoting you - "Rybka... would have no chance"
>
> I disagree with your assessment but I will try to test it: By matching Hiarcs 13.1 v Rybka 4 at ultra long time controls.


You got that completely backwards: At faster hardware or longer time controls, Rybka's advantage over Hiarcs will grow exponentially, all the way until the programs search deep enough to get close to solving the game, and all ends end in a draw. When the hardware gets sufficiently fast, the scalability of the search trumps everything else. If program X is 100 Elo points stronger than program Y when they both search only 50k nodes or so per move, but program Y gains 10 Elo points more with every time the number of nodes doubles, program Y will massacre program X at sufficiently fast hardware. That's the situation we are talking about.

Therefore, on modern PC hardware, you can easily write a super strong program simply by focusing on almost nothing but search scalability. It doesn't matter if the opponent programs are much more intelligent -- as long as you out-search them sufficiently, you'll crush them. Thanks to the exponential nature of the advantage provided by good scalability, nothing else really matters much at fast hardware.

Writing a scalable search isn't very hard. The state of the art techniques are well understood, and fairly easy to implement. Programs like Rybka or Stockfish running on fast hardware are terrifyingly strong, but from a software engineering point of view, they are quite unremarkable. Playing strongly on devices like the first-generation iPhone, with a slow CPU and limited memory, is a much harder task. That's why I called Hiarcs the best chess program. "Best" is of course a subjective assessment, what I meant is that Hiarcs is the most impressive programming achievement. What it does is a lot more remarkable than what Stockfish does.


Eelco


the problem is, there are situations/positions where you cannot SOLVE the position with SEARCH. you can scale as much as you wish, in those situations KNOWLEDGE is the key.

if you don't have this knowledge, all your hardware or your good scaling will not work. of course these situations are not seen by humans who let the machines play 30.000 bullet games. because no human replays those data.

but when watching tournament games (40/120) or even email-chess/correspondance chess games, you see that stockfish or komodo
CAN find out in such a situation while rybka and all clones cannot.

of course you cannot find these observations in ratings in elo lists.
_________________
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:37 pm
      Re: Houdini 3 Bram Mourik Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:07 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:17 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Alfonso Turri Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:43 pm
                        Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:55 pm
                        Re: Houdini 3 Adam Hair Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:55 pm
                        Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:00 pm
                              Re: Houdini 3 Ignacio Garcia Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:37 pm
                                    Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:18 pm
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:23 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:25 am
                              Re: Houdini 3 Mel Cooper Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:39 pm
                                    Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:41 pm
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Jimmy Huggins Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:57 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:24 am
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:02 pm
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Richard Vida Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:47 am
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:05 am
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:45 am
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:05 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:12 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:09 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:58 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:40 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:56 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Eelco de Groot Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:06 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Carl Bicknell Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:25 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Eelco de Groot Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:43 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:30 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:50 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:05 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Mike Scheidl Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:10 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:24 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Mike Scheidl Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:33 pm
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:13 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:38 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:05 pm
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Mike Scheidl Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:21 am
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:43 am
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Bigler Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:23 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Bram Mourik Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:54 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:42 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Bigler Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:36 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:32 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:18 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:09 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:53 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:30 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:24 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Robert Flesher Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:14 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 M ANSARI Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:15 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:32 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Timo Klaustermeyer Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:28 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:44 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:04 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Timo Klaustermeyer Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:28 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Timo Klaustermeyer Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:54 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 M ANSARI Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Peter Kasinski Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:49 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:52 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 M ANSARI Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Larry Kaufman Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:33 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Ron Langeveld Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:54 am
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:26 am
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:32 am
                                                                              Re: Houdini 3 Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:06 pm
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Carl Bicknell Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:33 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 S.Taylor Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:36 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Carl Bicknell Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:25 am
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:02 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Thorsten Czub Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:28 pm
                                                                                    Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:40 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Ed Schroder Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:47 pm
                                                                                          Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:02 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:30 pm
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:49 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:11 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Uri Blass Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:26 am
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Marijan Stipancic jr Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:38 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Marek Kwiatkowski Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 am
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:41 am
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Marijan Stipancic jr Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:38 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:27 am
                                          Re: Houdini 3 S.Taylor Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:28 am
                  Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:33 am
                        Re: Houdini 3 Vael Jean-Paul Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:02 pm
                              Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:16 pm
                                    Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:17 pm
                                          Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:32 pm
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:46 pm
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:45 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:30 am
                                                                  Re: Houdini 3 Joel Martus Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:12 pm
                                                                        Re: Houdini 3 Dr.Wael Deeb Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:22 pm
                                                Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:23 pm
                                                      Re: Houdini 3 Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:49 pm
                                                            Re: Houdini 3 Sedat Canbaz Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:00 am
      Re: Houdini 3 Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:34 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:47 pm
      Re: Houdini 3 Teodoriu Catalin Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:46 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Robert Houdart Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:52 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Nelson Hernandez Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:51 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Teodoriu Catalin Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:45 am
                        Re: Houdini 3 Nelson Hernandez Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:34 pm
                              Re: Houdini 3 Teodoriu Catalin Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:10 pm
      Re: Houdini 3 Marco Costalba Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:18 am
            Re: Houdini 3 Bram Mourik Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:53 am
            Re: Houdini 3 Ed Schroder Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:04 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Marco Costalba Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:18 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 Miguel A. Ballicora Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:07 pm
                  Re: Houdini 3 Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:28 pm
            Re: Houdini 3 George Speight Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:02 am
      Re: Houdini 3 fernando Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:54 pm
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Enhanced with Moby Threads